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unless with subjunctive Options
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2019 3:02:37 PM

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I hate to ask, but there are so many conditional forms - which is the third?
I was never taught this fallacy that there are only four.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2019 3:18:38 PM

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Yes, there are more than four but the third remains the third.))
It's
If+past perfect + would have + past particle.

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2019 3:33:49 PM

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Ah, right. I've tried, but somehow I really can't remember those four as anything special - what about the eleventh? or twenty-sixth? or forty-first? The longest list I've seen had forty-seven different conditionals in Englis (and they all made sense)
That's unreal.
If he hadn't been drunk, he wouldn't have had the accident.
Had he not been drunk, he wouldn't have had the accident.

He WAS drunk (so 'not been drunk' is untrue)and had an accident (so 'not have the accident' is untrue). It's simpler to see in the positive form.
If he'd been sober, he would have been safe.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2019 3:49:20 PM

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I would like to see the list of forty seven (different) conditionals. Otherwise it's hard to comment. But 0,1,2,3 conditionals are the basic ones and they are very popular with learners of English. OK, back to the topic.

SO,

1 If he hadn't been drunk, he wouldn't have had the accident. (unreal)

2 A good driver like him wouldn't have had this accident unless he had been drunk out of his gourd. (real)

TRANSFORM THEM INTO SIMPLER ONES
2 A good driver like him wouldn't have had this accident unless he had been drunk out of his gourd. =

He wouldn't have had this accident unless he had been drunk. (real)

1 If he hadn't been drunk, he wouldn't have had the accident. = He wouldn't have had the accident, if he hadn't been drunk. (unreal)

RESULT

1 He wouldn't have had the accident, if he hadn't been drunk. (unreal)
2 He wouldn't have had this accident unless he had been drunk. (real)

Aren't they the same in their gist?
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2019 4:48:18 PM

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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Ivan Fadeev wrote:
RESULT
1 He wouldn't have had the accident, if he hadn't been drunk. . . .
2 He wouldn't have had this accident unless he had been drunk. . . .
Aren't they the same in their gist?

Let's look at "Does the sentence say he was drunk and had an accident?" - I have a bit of difficulty with 'unreal and real' for negative sentences.
Quote:
Real conditionals (also called zero conditionals) are sentences expressing the real conditions for things that happen, not hypothetical things (see Imagined Conditionals). They share true statements about things that will happen or do happen in certain conditions or circumstances.

"He wouldn't have had this accident" = he did have this accident, but there are some conditions under which he would not have had this accident.
"if he hadn't been drunk" = he was drunk, but, if he hadn't been . . .
So, by the definition I know, it's unreal - it's not true that he was not drunk and didn't have an accident.

and the other one:
He wouldn't have had this accident
= he did have this accident, but there are some conditions under which he would not have had this accident.
"unless he had been drunk" = a condition under which he would not have had the accident - but he did have the accident, so this condition must be untrue.


This form (using past perfect and 'would have +verb') always talks about unreal, impossible situations in the past.

Quote:
Zero (True) First (Likely) Second (Less Likely) Third (Impossible) Mixed (Possible) Would/Will (Probable)

This is the first time I've seen such a simple explanation of the types.

The quotes are from this site.
It may not give forty-seven, but it gives six possible zeros, eight firsts, eight seconds, eight thirds - then adds 'mixed' and 'other'. That's thirty plus several. And it doesn't mention the use of "Had he been sober" for "If he had been sober", which doubles some of the types.

Anyway - time for bed. I'm up at five for work.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, January 5, 2019 10:58:57 PM
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Just to remind you all of two points:

1. The "good driver" was the other guy, not the one who had the accident.

2. Nobody was, or had been, drunk!
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Sunday, January 6, 2019 2:03:26 AM

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DRAGO SAID: It may not give forty-seven, but it gives six possible zeros, eight firsts, eight seconds, eight thirds - then adds 'mixed' and 'other'. That's thirty plus several. And it doesn't mention the use of "Had he been sober" for "If he had been sober", which doubles some of the types.

Good site, it mentions more conditionals than any other site! But I must point out that I managed to count only 5 zeros, 3 firsts (I don't know how you see 8 there. Maybe you count each modal verb? I refer all modals to one group) Plus I can tell you that they miss out on one more first conditional, second conditionals are not eight (because it's possible to put all modals in one category), third conditionals - I can see not more than three or even 2, a lot of different sentences come down to one group.


Audiendus
Just to remind you all of two points:

1. The "good driver" was the other guy, not the one who had the accident.

2. Nobody was, or had been, drunk!


Good point.

DRAGO SAID: He wouldn't have had this accident = he did have this accident, but there are some conditions under which he would not have had this accident.

1) "if he hadn't been drunk" = he was drunk...

2) "unless he had been drunk" = he was drunk (a condition under which he would not have had the accident - but he did have the accident, so this condition must be untrue.)


IVAN SAYS:
It seems like one of the two should be wrong. And it must be 2

1 He wouldn't have had the accident, if he hadn't been drunk. (I am sure he was drunk)
2 He wouldn't have had this accident unless he had been drunk. (He could have been drunk, but I don't know for sure)

Do you think it wrong?
He wouldn't have had this accident unless he had been drunk.


PLUS, BBC says that UNLESS can't be used with WOULD HAVE. I still don't see their point. What do they mean?

UNLESS he WOULD HAVE BEEN DRUNK? - Or "WOULD HAVE" should be in the other clause.


By the way, it seems to me that those thought in brackets make sense

1 He wouldn't have had the accident, if he hadn't been drunk. (I am sure he was drunk)
2 He wouldn't have had this accident unless he had been drunk. (He could have been drunk, but I don't know for sure)


Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, January 6, 2019 8:23:27 AM
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Ivan Fadeev wrote:
PLUS, BBC says that UNLESS can't be used with WOULD HAVE. I still don't see their point. What do they mean?

UNLESS he WOULD HAVE BEEN DRUNK? - Or "WOULD HAVE" should be in the other clause.

I think they mean the use of "would have" in one clause and "unless" in the other.

The conditional clause (i.e. the one with "if" or "unless") in a third conditional construction uses "had..." to refer to something unreal. Suppose that someone had been drunk:

We can say "if he had not been drunk", because "he had not been drunk" is untrue/unreal.
We cannot say "unless he had been drunk", because "he had been drunk" is true/real.

I think that is what the BBC meant.

Ivan Fadeev wrote:
By the way, it seems to me that those thought in brackets make sense

1 He wouldn't have had the accident, if he hadn't been drunk. (I am sure he was drunk) Yes.

2 He wouldn't have had this accident unless he had been drunk. (He could have been drunk, but I don't know for sure) I would not use "unless" here. The logic is:
(a) He had this accident.
(b) He could only have had it if he was drunk.
(c) Therefore, he must have been drunk.
So "he had been drunk" is true/real. So we should say "if...not" rather than "unless", for the reasons I have given above.

Nevertheless, you may hear (2) said. Its meaning is clear, even though it is not entirely logical.

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