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To confront a bunch of countries, among which are the US and UK(Subject–verb inversion) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 6:57:51 PM

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Y111 wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Firstly: you mean then the pronoun phrase 'among which' is, itself, the subject of relative clause 'among which are the US and the UK, and also the UN (?)(which means the whole world?)'

No, I mean the subject is what the clause speaks about. And that is obviously 'the US and the UK'.

'The US and the UK' are, and 'which' is, not something but somewhere. So the 'are' and 'is' are not copulas here but regular verbs meaning 'to be located'. It's a different meaning of 'be'.


Thanks a lot,
But, Drag0nspeaker, if I understood him well, said that 'are' is a 'linking verb'

Drag0nspeaker wrote:

A normal 'linking verb sentence (or pair of sentences) could be:
You should be strong and brave to confront a union of countries. (Especially if) among these countries are the US and the UK.
Then the inversion which Y111 mentions just switches around the two 'items' - but it doesn't move the linking verb.
You should be strong and brave to confront a union of countries. Especially if the US and the UK are among these countries.
You wouldn't say:
You should be strong and brave to confront a union of countries. Especially if the US and the UK among these countries are.
A linking verb normally comes between two ideas - a noun and some other phrase (noun, adjective or occasionally adverb, I believe), linking them together. It is very rare you will find a linking verb at the end of a sentence - though it is possible.






Y111 wrote:
But even if 'which' is alone it's not necessarily the subject.
"My neighbor speaks 5 languages, which I find amazing."
The subject is 'I'.


Yes, it's obvious that 'I' is the subject of relative clause since 'which' refers to the whole clause 'My neighbor speaks 5 languages'
However, in the two sentences below, it is confused about where the subject of relative clause is since the relative pronouns 'among which' and 'where' are NOT referring to a preceding entire clause, however, they refer to subjects as marked in red colours. So, if they, themselves, are the subjects of the relative clauses, then they are also referring to the other subjects which are marked with red colours.
1- you should be strong and brave to confront a bunch of countries, among which are the US and the UK, and also the UN (?)(which means the whole world?).

2- we have now a lot of applications from all over the world, from many countries where are crisis by different reasons.

Where the subjects marked with blue colour are referring to each red colour.






Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Y111
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 3:24:58 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
But, Drag0nspeaker, if I understood him well, said that 'are' is a 'linking verb'

Yes, but I would disagree with him here. However, I am not a grammarian.

A cooperator wrote:
Yes, it's obvious that 'I' is the subject of relative clause since 'which' refers to the whole clause 'My neighbor speaks 5 languages'

No, not because of that but because the clause speaks about 'I'.

Subject
grammar
a noun, noun phrase or pronoun representing the person or thing that performs the action of the verb (I in I sat down.), about which something is stated (the house in the house is very old) or, in a passive sentence, that is affected by the action of the verb (the tree in the tree was blown down in the storm)


So, who performs the action of being among the bunch of countries? The US and the UK. Which means they are the subject of the clause.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 12:15:12 AM

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Whether 'are' is a linking verb or not here is a good question.

My 'logic' is that the whole idea is something like this:

You should be strong and brave to confront a union of countries. The US and the UK are among this union of countries.

"Which" in the original sentence represents "a union of countries".

The subject of that clause is, as Y111 writes, "The US and the UK" (and also "the UN", if you want to continue calling it a country).

The verb is "are"; the complement is "among which" ("among this union of countries").

This makes "are" look very much like a linking verb to me. It links the subject and the preposition phrase.

***********
"Among which" is not a pronoun phrase - it is a preposition and a pronoun:

a·mong prep.
2. In the group, number, or class of: She is among the wealthy.


She is among the wealthy.
'She' is in the group 'the wealthy'.

. . . a union of countries, among which are the US and the UK.
'The US' and 'the UK' are in the group 'this union of countries'.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Y111
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2018 2:23:19 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Whether 'are' is a linking verb or not here is a good question.

It seems there isn't one answer to it. The definitions differ. I guess the idea behind the stricter one is that 'be' is a linking verb if it can't be interpreted as an action. You perform no action in "I am a man" or "I am tall". By saying that, you simply describe yourself. But if you say "I am at home", it can be seen as an action. You occupy some place, or are located in some place. You are not that place, you use it.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2018 5:51:13 PM

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Y111 wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Firstly: you mean then the pronoun phrase 'among which' is, itself, the subject of relative clause 'among which are the US and the UK, and also the UN (?)(which means the whole world?)'

No, I mean the subject is what the clause speaks about. And that is obviously 'the US and the UK'.


Y111,

I cannot imagine that a subject can come after its verb unless a question. I see 'the US and the UK' comes after the verb 'are', so it cannot be a subject since it comes after its verb. So, I still think of 'among which' is the subject of relative clause, and 'among which' is referring to 'a bunch of countries'. 'the US and the UK' is the subject complement of relative pronoun 'among which' used as a subject referring to 'a bunch of countries'
'You should be strong and brave to confront a bunch of countries, among which are the US and the UK, and also the UN (?)(which means the whole world?)'


The same thing is in 'we have now a lot of applications from all over the world, from many countries where are crisis by different reasons.', 'where' is the subject of the relative clause since it comes before its verb 'are', and the subject 'where' is referring to 'many countries'. However, 'crisis by different reasons' is the subject complement of the relative pronoun 'which' used as a subject referring to 'many countries'.



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2018 7:21:02 PM

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Y111 wrote:
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Whether 'are' is a linking verb or not here is a good question.

It seems there isn't one answer to it. The definitions differ. I guess the idea behind the stricter one is that 'be' is a linking verb if it can't be interpreted as an action. You perform no action in "I am a man" or "I am tall". By saying that, you simply describe yourself. But if you say "I am at home", it can be seen as an action. You occupy some place, or are located in some place. You are not that place, you use it.


Hmm!
"I am at home." <=> "At home, I am." I don't think there is an action at all.
"I am at home." (this mentions I as well as others might be at home.). However, 'At home, I am.', this is specified that I am certainly at home.

I am at home imprisoned. ('am' is a linking verb.)

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Y111
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2018 3:41:00 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
I cannot imagine that a subject can come after its verb unless a question.

I have a problem trying to imagine how a particle can also be a wave, but it's a well known fact in physics. Our intellect can go much farther than our imagination. So, when your imagination fails you, rely on your intellect.

Subject-verb inversion in English is also a well known fact.

Subject–verb inversion in English is a type of inversion where the subject and verb (or chain of verbs, verb catena) switch their canonical order of appearance, so that the subject follows the verb(s), e.g. A lamp stood beside the bed → Beside the bed stood a lamp.
<...>
a. Some flowers are in the vase.
b. In the vase are some flowers. - Subject-verb inversion with the copula
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2018 7:43:55 AM
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Y111 wrote:

Subject–verb inversion in English is a type of inversion where the subject and verb (or chain of verbs, verb catena) switch their canonical order of appearance, so that the subject follows the verb(s), e.g. A lamp stood beside the bed → Beside the bed stood a lamp.
<...>
a. Some flowers are in the vase.
b. In the vase are some flowers. - Subject-verb inversion with the copula

Yes. Further examples:

Among the trees was a small house.
You should be strong and brave to confront a bunch of countries, among which is the UK.

(Note the singular verb.)
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:32:03 PM

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Y111 wrote:
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Whether 'are' is a linking verb or not here is a good question.

It seems there isn't one answer to it. The definitions differ. I guess the idea behind the stricter one is that 'be' is a linking verb if it can't be interpreted as an action. You perform no action in "I am a man" or "I am tall". By saying that, you simply describe yourself. But if you say "I am at home", it can be seen as an action. You occupy some place, or are located in some place. You are not that place, you use it.


Thanks a lot, Audiendus, Y111, Dragonspeaker,
I think even in my Arabic language, "I am at home" means something like 'I exist at home.', where 'exist' corresponds to 'am'. So, 'am' here isn't, as you said, a linking verb. Though in Arabic language, 'exist' can only appear to only express that I am at home. But there is really no real action I do at home. So, as long as we don't care about what action 'I am doing at home', all we need to know is 'I am at home', in Arabic, we can say the sentence "I am at home."/"I exist at home." without any verb which is called a nominal sentence.

However, if we need to know what action I am doing at home, then there is a real action, the verb must be appeared, for instance, 'I read at home.'


As a result, the 'are' or 'is' in the original sentence can be expressed or rephrased with 'exist'.
You should be strong and brave to confront a bunch of countries, among which exists the UK.
You should be strong and brave to confront a bunch of countries, among which exist the UK, and US.



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 2:17:37 AM

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That all makes good sense - I guess we both apply the definition which Y111 calls "the stricter definition of a linking verb".

I agree that "I am at home" is equivalent to "I exist at home" (that is not a phrase anyone would USE, but the meaning is the same). It is, like in your Arabic nominal sentence, just a 'state'.

***************
The quite rare occasions in which "be" is used as an action verb are often (usually) marked by the use of the progressive aspect and it has a specific meaning and implication.
It means "act, in a different manner than usual" or "act, with a different function than the usual one". The verb "to act" is definitely an action verb, not a linking verb. This use of "be being" implies "acting a role", similar to how an actor would - and it implies that it is temporary.

Some examples - which you may see or hear in normal life.

When someone who is usually quite serious makes a joke - or a series of jokes - someone may say "You're being silly!" or "You're being stupid!"
"You are being" - the progressive - is almost never used, except in this sort of meaning.
It doesn't mean "You are stupid." - it simply means "I realise that you are deliberately acting like a stupid person, temporarily."

"My children are being little devils today" means that they are acting in a naughty way, today - but that is unusual. Usually they are very good.

"I'm being a chauffeur just now" means "Temporarily, I am acting as a driver for some other people. This is not my real job, but a function I'm performing just now."

*************
You should be strong and brave to confront a bunch of countries, among which exists the UK.
You should be strong and brave to confront a bunch of countries, among which exist the UK, and US.


Yes - these could be used to rephrase the original.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 5:56:46 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
That all makes good sense - I guess we both apply the definition which Y111 calls "the stricter definition of a linking verb".

I agree that "I am at home" is equivalent to "I exist at home" (that is not a phrase anyone would USE, but the meaning is the same). It is, like in your Arabic nominal sentence, just a 'state'.

***************
The quite rare occasions in which "be" is used as an action verb are often (usually) marked by the use of the progressive aspect and it has a specific meaning and implication.
It means "act, in a different manner than usual" or "act, with a different function than the usual one". The verb "to act" is definitely an action verb, not a linking verb. This use of "be being" implies "acting a role", similar to how an actor would - and it implies that it is temporary.

Some examples - which you may see or hear in normal life.

When someone who is usually quite serious makes a joke - or a series of jokes - someone may say "You're being silly!" or "You're being stupid!"
"You are being" - the progressive - is almost never used, except in this sort of meaning.
It doesn't mean "You are stupid." - it simply means "I realise that you are deliberately acting like a stupid person, temporarily."

"My children are being little devils today" means that they are acting in a naughty way, today - but that is unusual. Usually they are very good.

"I'm being a chauffeur just now" means "Temporarily, I am acting as a driver for some other people. This is not my real job, but a function I'm performing just now."

*************


Thanks a lot,
Well, then you've some grips on Arabic language since it seemed that understand Arabic nominal sentence which never begins with a verb(action), but instead with 'a noun' or 'pronoun'.
I don't know if you mean with the progressive of 'be', which is almost never used, except in this sort of meaning, like in "You're being stupid!", with the same in 'are going' in 'you're going.'
Whichsoever you meant, in Arabic language, we don't have any verbs corresponding to verbs in 'progressive aspect'.
However, we have nouns denoting the same.
For instance, 'John is going.', in Arabic, can only be translated with either a present verb 'John goes.' or 'is going' can be expressed with a noun denoting the state of being going. (an occasion when someone leaves a place or job permanently).

Nevertheless, I don't know how to translate 'you're being stupid!' in Arabic, however, I can translate 'you're stupid.' to a nominal sentence, in which the pronoun 'you' is preceded the adjective 'stupid' without any linking verb which links the subject 'you' with its describer.


BTW, in English, in 'you're stupid.', you call 'you' as a subject, however, 'are' is a linking verb(NOT an action verb), and 'stupid' is an adjective. As long as there is no action verb, then why do you call 'you' as a subject? That is, what action is 'you' the subject for? Do you mean "you" is the subject of being stupid? In Arabic, we only have a subject who does the action. Thus, we can only have subjects when there is an action verb.






Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 10:48:08 PM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I agree that "I am at home" is equivalent to "I exist at home"

An added complication here is that "exist" (and, more rarely, "be") can stand alone as an intransitive verb, e.g:

Ghosts do not exist.
Philosophers argue about what actually exists.
I think, therefore I am.
We need to determine what is and what is not.


Now consider the following sentences:

1. Santa Claus is in many children's minds. ["is" = is present as an idea]
2. Santa Claus exists in many children's minds. ["exists" = ?]
3. Santa Claus exists, in many children's minds. ["exists" = is thought to be real]

Clearly, (1) and (3) are different in meaning (as shown in blue); and (2) could have either the meaning of (1) or the meaning of (3). Not only that, but the grammatical structure seems to be different: "is" in (1) has something of the character of a linking verb (copula), whereas "exists" in (2) and (3) does not. In (2) and (3), the phrase "in many children's minds" is adverbial, but in (1) it seems more adjectival.

Any thoughts on this?
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 7, 2018 5:25:12 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I agree that "I am at home" is equivalent to "I exist at home"

An added complication here is that "exist" (and, more rarely, "be") can stand alone as an intransitive verb, e.g:

Ghosts do not exist.
Philosophers argue about what actually exists.
I think, therefore I am.
We need to determine what is and what is not.


Now consider the following sentences:

1. Santa Claus is in many children's minds. ["is" = is present as an idea]
2. Santa Claus exists in many children's minds. ["exists" = ?]
3. Santa Claus exists, in many children's minds. ["exists" = is thought to be real]

Clearly, (1) and (3) are different in meaning (as shown in blue); and (2) could have either the meaning of (1) or the meaning of (3). Not only that, but the grammatical structure seems to be different: "is" in (1) has something of the character of a linking verb (copula), whereas "exists" in (2) and (3) does not. In (2) and (3), the phrase "in many children's minds" is adverbial, but in (1) it seems more adjectival.

Any thoughts on this?


Thanks a lot, Audiendus,

I think even in the followings, 'in training' is adverbial, and 'am' and 'exist' are equivalent.
I am in training from the 10th - 14th of December with limited access to emails, so please bear with me and I will get back to you as soon as I can.
I exist in training from the 10th - 14th of December with limited access to emails, so please bear with me and I will get back to you as soon as I can.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 7, 2018 6:08:47 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
Y111 wrote:

Subject–verb inversion in English is a type of inversion where the subject and verb (or chain of verbs, verb catena) switch their canonical order of appearance, so that the subject follows the verb(s), e.g. A lamp stood beside the bed → Beside the bed stood a lamp.
<...>
a. Some flowers are in the vase.
b. In the vase are some flowers. - Subject-verb inversion with the copula

Yes. Further examples:

Among the trees was a small house.
You should be strong and brave to confront a bunch of countries, among which is the UK.

(Note the singular verb.)


Could anyone please tell me why we use 'Subject-verb inversion' in '...., among which is the UK.'? That is, what difference is there between '..., among which is the UK.' and '..., among which the UK is.'? Is always the 'Subject-verb inversion' used whenever a verb is 'copula'/a linking verb?

Here the 'is' in the underlined clause is a linking verb or not. Is 'it' the subject, 'them' the subject complement and 'is' the linking verb?
The scholarships are usually in partnership with partners and it is them who we act with in setting scholarships for other countries.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 7, 2018 8:09:15 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
I think even in the followings, 'in training' is adverbial, and 'am' and 'exist' are equivalent.
I am in training from the 10th - 14th of December with limited access to emails, so please bear with me and I will get back to you as soon as I can.
I exist in training from the 10th - 14th of December with limited access to emails, so please bear with me and I will get back to you as soon as I can.

If "is" is a linking verb in "He is sick" but not in "He is in pain", is it a linking verb in "He is sick and in pain"? (We cannot say: "He exists sick and in pain".)
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 7, 2018 9:15:17 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Could anyone please tell me why we use 'Subject-verb inversion' in '...., among which is the UK.'? That is, what difference is there between '..., among which is the UK.' and '..., among which the UK is.'? No difference in meaning. The inversion is only to make the sentence flow better.

Is always the 'Subject-verb inversion' used whenever a verb is 'copula'/a linking verb? No, the verb normally follows the subject (e.g. "I am a student"). Inversion is only used in some constructions (e.g. after a negative word), or to improve the flow after a preposition phrase. For example:

Never had I seen such a thing. [inversion after a negative]
On the table was a box, in which lay the missing key. [inversion after preposition phrases]



Here the 'is' in the underlined clause is a linking verb or not. Is 'it' the subject Yes - a 'dummy' subject, 'them' the subject complement Yes, and 'is' the linking verb? Yes.
The scholarships are usually in partnership with partners and it is them who we act with in setting scholarships for other countries.
Strictly speaking, it should be "it is they whom we act with". "They" is a subject complement and should therefore be in the subjective case. "Whom" is the object of the preposition "with", and should therefore be in the objective case.
Y111
Posted: Saturday, December 8, 2018 2:41:33 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
Could anyone please tell me why we use 'Subject-verb inversion' in '...., among which is the UK.'?

I think word order is inverted to make it consistent with the order of ideas in our thought. In some sense you were right when you said that 'among which' should be the subject. Actually, what I meant to say was "You should be strong and brave to confront a bunch of countries which includes the US and the UK". This is how my thought went, and the order of ideas determined the word order.

So, 'the US and the UK' is the subject of the clause from a grammatical point of view, but from the point of view of the clause's meaning it indeed looks as if the subject were 'among which'.

'among which are' = 'which (bunch) includes'.

However, in grammatical analysis we look for the grammatical subject, and that's 'the US and the UK'.
Y111
Posted: Saturday, December 8, 2018 3:35:55 AM
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Audiendus wrote:
If "is" is a linking verb in "He is sick" but not in "He is in pain", is it a linking verb in "He is sick and in pain"? (We cannot say: "He exists sick and in pain".)

It probably is because 'in pain' is not actually a location. At least if we change it to "He is sick and in his car", I suspect it won't sound OK. :) So there must be some difference.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 8, 2018 12:46:24 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
I think even in the followings, 'in training' is adverbial, and 'am' and 'exist' are equivalent.
I am in training from the 10th - 14th of December with limited access to emails, so please bear with me and I will get back to you as soon as I can.
I exist in training from the 10th - 14th of December with limited access to emails, so please bear with me and I will get back to you as soon as I can.

If "is" is a linking verb in "He is sick" but not in "He is in pain", is it a linking verb in "He is sick and in pain"? (We cannot say: "He exists sick and in pain".)


Thanks lot,
In ""He is sick and in pain.", and "He is sick and in his car.", "is" is NOT a linking verb because being "sick and in pain" and "sick and in his car" aren't states permanently accompanying the subject like in "He is tall.", and "He is sick." - the situation can be changed in "He is sick and in pain.", and "He is sick and in his car.".
For me, the verb "is"/"am"/"was" in all the followings is NOT a linking verb because all the adverbial phrases, "in pain", "in training", "in his car", "at home", "on the table", "among the trees" are not permanent(changed) states.
He is in pain. -> He won't permanently be "in pain".
He is in training. -> He won't permanently be "in training".
He is in his car. -> He won't permanently be in his car.
I am at home. -> I won't permanently be at home .
A box was on the table. -> A box wouldn't permanently be on the table. (However, "A box is thick.", "thick" is permanently accompanying the subject "a book" and cannot be changed one day to be thin with the same book.)
A small house was among the trees. -> The same small house wouldn't permanently be among the trees.

As a result, if a phrase followed "to be" verb is NOT a state permanently accompanying a subject, and can be changed from time to time, then "to be" won't be a linking verb.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 8, 2018 4:38:35 PM

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Audiendus wrote:

Here the 'is' in the underlined clause is a linking verb or not. Is 'it' the subject Yes - a 'dummy' subject, 'them' the subject complement Yes, and 'is' the linking verb? Yes.
The scholarships are usually in partnership with partners and it is them who we act with in setting scholarships for other countries.
Strictly speaking, it should be "it is they whom we act with". "They" is a subject complement and should therefore be in the subjective case. "Whom" is the object of the preposition "with", and should therefore be in the objective case.
[/quote]


Audiendus,
When must 'it is them whom we act with'?
'It is me whom you are talking to.'

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Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, December 8, 2018 8:33:01 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
As a result, if a phrase followed "to be" verb is NOT a state permanently accompanying a subject, and can be changed from time to time, then "to be" won't be a linking verb.

What if "to be" is followed by an adjective that is not a permanent state, e.g. "He is glad" or "The weather is fine"?
Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, December 8, 2018 8:57:29 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
When must 'it is them whom we act with'?
'It is me whom you are talking to.'

In traditional grammar, "it is them...", "it is me..." etc are always incorrect, because a subject complement requires the subjective (sometimes called 'nominative') case. In informal written English and in spoken English, however, the objective (sometimes called 'accusative') case is often used in such instances. In spoken English, if the sentence ends with the personal pronoun, the objective case is almost always used (and "it is" is shortened to "it's"):

It's me.
It's him.
It's her.
It's us.
It's them.

"It is I", "it is he" etc would sound very old-fashioned if spoken.

A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2018 10:05:37 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,969
Neurons: 11,054
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
As a result, if a phrase followed "to be" verb is NOT a state permanently accompanying a subject, and can be changed from time to time, then "to be" won't be a linking verb.

What if "to be" is followed by an adjective that is not a permanent state, e.g. "He is glad" or "The weather is fine"?

For me, "is" is obviously a link verb, and cannot be replaced with "exist".



I still think of we can replace the verb in the following with "exist":
The girl is in the blue dress.
He is in training.
He is in pain.
He is at home.
He is on the table.
The house is among the trees.

However, we cannot replace the verb in the following with "exist" unless we can replace the second "is":
He is sick and is in his car.
He is sick and is in pain.

As a result, I think if a prepositional phrase "a preposition plus phrase"(I think you call it adverbial), such as "in training, at home, on the table, among the trees, in his mind", then the verb can be replaced by "exist", and therefore it cannot be a linking verb.

For me, and may be for another reader, even in your sentences below, the verb "is" is not a inking verb, since I cannot come up with/hit on the intended idea suggested and put in brackets, and since what follows "is/exist" looks a location/adverbial phrase.

1. Santa Claus is in many children's minds. ["is" = is present as an idea]
2. Santa Claus exists in many children's minds. ["exists" = ?]
3. Santa Claus exists, in many children's minds. ["exists" = is thought to be real]

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2018 10:50:40 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 2,969
Neurons: 11,054
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
When must 'it is them whom we act with'?
'It is me whom you are talking to.'

In traditional grammar, "it is them...", "it is me..." etc are always incorrect, because a subject complement requires the subjective (sometimes called 'nominative') case. In informal written English and in spoken English, however, the objective (sometimes called 'accusative') case is often used in such instances. In spoken English, if the sentence ends with the personal pronoun, the objective case is almost always used (and "it is" is shortened to "it's"):

It's me.
It's him.
It's her.
It's us.
It's them.

"It is I", "it is he" etc would sound very old-fashioned if spoken.


Thanks a lot,
To be consistent, even "to whom" should be "who.... to" or "whom.... to" in informal written English and in informal spoken English.

Informal written or spoken English:
'It is me whom you are talking to.'
'It is me who you are talking to.'

Formal written or spoken English:
'It is I to whom you are talking.'

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 10, 2018 11:21:45 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/24/2011
Posts: 5,194
Neurons: 952,109
Location: London, England, United Kingdom
A cooperator wrote:
To be consistent, even "to whom" should be "who.... to" or "whom.... to" in informal written English and in informal spoken English.

Informal written or spoken English:
'It is me whom you are talking to.'
'It is me who you are talking to.'

Formal written or spoken English:
'It is I to whom you are talking.'


Yes. "Whom" is now uncommon in speech. Also, spoken English often omits the relative pronoun:
"It's me you're talking to."
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