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When is a countable noun not preceded by any article (articles and job titles) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 10:25:33 AM

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Hi Everyone!


I've seen there is no article before "school" or "university".
1- the best listeners are engaged with whatever they are listening to. This could be a lecture at school or a conversation with a friend.
2- funding is key consideration when you think about university.

I know there in English grammar, the term zero article refers to an occasion in speech or writing where a noun or noun phrase is not preceded by an article (a, an, or the). In general, no article is used with proper nouns, mass nouns where the reference is indefinite, or plural count nouns where the reference is indefinite.

Would you be so kind as to give me a brief of When a countable noun is not preceded by any article?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 10:38:21 AM

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Hi!

It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".
"If you want to see him, he's working in the garden at the hospital in High Street." - a definite hospital.
"You can't see him till next week. He's in hospital." - The general concept of "being treated medically in a hospital somewhere". It doesn't matter which one. it's enough to know that "he's in hospital".

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 11:22:39 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi!

It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".
"If you want to see him, he's working in the garden at the hospital in High Street." - a definite hospital.
"You can't see him till next week. He's in hospital." - The general concept of "being treated medically in a hospital somewhere". It doesn't matter which one. it's enough to know that "he's in hospital".


Thanks a lot,
First of all,
You said "It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite."
No confusion is there between "an/a" Vs "the", however the issue is in "a/an" and zero article.

So, I think " a school" or "school" denotes somewhere, but it doesn't matter which one, in "The best listeners are engaged with whatever they are listening to. This could be a lecture at (a) school or a conversation with a friend."

Also, in your example, "a hospital" or "hospital" denotes somewhere, but it doesn't matter which one, in "You can't see him till next week. He's in (a) hospital."

I tend to have a rule helping me master when to use or not to use an article.
In the same concept, I know a rule saying "when the word "home" comes immediately after 'arrive', 'bring', 'come', 'get', 'go', 'send', and 'take', then it functions as an adverb denoting destination. In this case it isn't preceded by any preposition."

So,would you be so kind as to give me a rule of when a countable noun is not preceded by any article?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
thar
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 12:00:43 PM

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There are some situations that are so basic to life that there is a special idiom for them. Sort of a linguistic speed dial.

You will understand the idea as you meet them in context, and you just have to realise they are exceptions.
The noun without a article indicates the concept, the idea.

These involve common situations in life.
Or, in the case of being in hospital, an extreme situation but one that is expressed simply and quickly with this structure.
eg
I am at home. (where I live)
I am at work. (Where I earn my livelihood)
I am at school. (at college/university) (Where I receive my education)
I am in hospital (where I am receiving medical treatment overnight or as an emergency)

That is a state, not a location. If I am at work then I can't pick up the shopping you want. If I am at school I can't come and play.

It doesn't even have to be the state you are in right now - it can be where you are in your life.
eg
I am at university means the same as saying 'I am a student'.

'I am still at school', could mean 'I haven't left yet, because I stayed for a sports practice this afternoon'.
Or
'I am still at school' could mean 'I haven't left school yet because I am only fifteen and I won't leave school until I am sixteen.'

These are nothing to do with location - they are about the state you are in.

If you work in an office, then if you are 'at work', it probably means you are in that office. But if you are a lorry driver, then if you are at work you are probably somewhere on the road.

Similarly, if you are in hospital, it means you are a patient receiving treatment in a medical facility. (That is BrE - it is different in AmE where they use the article for that). It could be anywhere - the important thing is that you are ill or injured.


There are those few special cases, where it is the concept of the idea of what you are doing there, that take no article.

If you are in that building (or at that location) for another reason, then these are treated exactly the same as any other noun and take an appropriate article.
eg
I am at the school waiting for my daughter. I am in the hospital waiting for my appointment.
I am at a school in London teaching Arabic.
I am at several schools this week giving workshops on creativity.
NKM
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 5:07:08 PM

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A cooperator wrote:


2- funding is key consideration when you think about university.

══════════════════════════════════════════════

In American English: "Funding is a key consideration when you think about college."

(And I believe the article before "key" is necessary in British English, too.)

thar
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 5:17:30 PM

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Yes, in BrE too.

Don't confuse the two forms. It can be used as an adjective.


Adjective + noun
Funding is a key consideration.
Funding is an important consideration.

If the noun should have an article, it goes before the adjective.



adjective
Funding is key.
Funding is important.

No article.


But that sentence (with the change NKM made) is a prime example of how this structure works.
eg
Funding is a key consideration in thinking about university.
This is not a building, it is not even any particular institution. It is the concept of continuing your education and getting a degree.

When you are fifteen or so you think about university.
If you don't want to go to university, you think about work.
(In Britain you can leave school at 16, you can go to college from 16-18 or stay at school from 16-18 - it depends where you live, which school you go to and how your local education authority organises things. It doesn't make a big difference - a lot of the qualifications are the same).
At the end of that you might go to university at 18, or go to a college to do other courses, or start work.)

A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 8:18:52 PM

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Thank you both of you,

Yes, "Funding is a key consideration when thinking about university."
But, in "The best listeners are engaged with whatever they are listening to. This could be a lecture at school or a conversation with a friend.", do you think "school" means like "college", and "university"? So, it has a zero article.

I think " a school" or "school" denotes somewhere, but it doesn't matter which one, in "The best listeners are engaged with whatever they are listening to. This could be a lecture at (a) school or a conversation with a friend."

Also, in Drag0nspeaker's example, "a hospital" or "hospital" denotes somewhere, but it doesn't matter which one, in "You can't see him till next week. He's in (a) hospital."

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Y111
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 3:32:00 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
I think " a school" or "school" denotes somewhere, but it doesn't matter which one, in "The best listeners are engaged with whatever they are listening to. This could be a lecture at (a) school or a conversation with a friend."

I think that in some sense it matters because in terms of location "I am at school" obviously means you are at YOUR school, not just A school. Similarly in your example about listeners 'a lecture at school' means one at THEIR school, not just some absolutely indefinite one.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 3:49:08 AM

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A Cooperator wrote:
Also, in Drag0nspeaker's example, "a hospital" or "hospital" denotes somewhere, but it doesn't matter which one. . .


It is not 'normal grammar' - it is an idiom which is very common, but seems 'wrong' according to normal patterns.

"You can't see him till next week. He's in hospital." - He is receiving treatment in a hospital, and is (at least for a day or two) sleeping there.

"You can't see him till next week. He's in a hospital." - His current location is somewhere on the premises of a hospital (he may be working there, or just visiting).
The sentence does not quite make sense.
The fact that he is at a hospital just now (today) does not explain why you can't see him for the next week.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 5:06:06 AM
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As for Tertiary education (University) being referred to as "school"?

It's only in AE that this format is used.

So elsewhere 'school' only means school - a place for children.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 10:34:30 AM

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Romany wrote:
As for Tertiary education (University) being referred to as "school"?

It's only in AE that this format is used.

So elsewhere 'school' only means school - a place for children.


Thanks a lot,
But, NKM, as a native American English speaker, referred to "university" as "college" in the American English, and he didn't refer to "university" as "school", which means "university" (UK English) means "education". On the other hand, "college" means "education" in (US English). However, "school" in both the US, UK English means "school" - a place for children.



In American English: "Funding is a key consideration when you think about college."

I found it in the UK English as follows: "Funding is a key consideration when you think about university."


But, as long as "University", in UK English, and "college", in US English, mean "education", why do we not say "she received an excellent education/ university/college."
"The standard of education/university/college has declined in this country."

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 12:17:31 PM

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"College" means "College" in Britain. It does not mean 'education'. "Education" is an action but 'college' is a place.

One can go to school till one is sixteen, then college foe a couple of years, or more.
Then maybe - or maybe not - one can go to university.
One can also go to college as an adult. I went to college and did a course in 2010, when I was sixty.
It should also be noted that some universities are split into colleges - these are similar to departments, I suppose. One is still 'at university', not 'at college'.
King's College Cambridge
Caius College Cambridge
Balliol College Oxford
Christ Church College Oxford

***********
In the USA, "College" means "college" or "university" - and sometimes "school" means "college" or "university".
"College", "school" and "University" do NOT mean "education".

One may go to school until one is eighteen, then to university. But it could be said "He's still at school". Or it might be said "He's at college."

There are two different naming-systems - American and English (There are also others - Scottish, Australian . . .whatever).
Probably, each one of these will have different ways to say things - choices.
Like, if you have graduated to University in the USA, you might choose to say "I'm at college" or even "I'm still at school" - but you cannot choose to call it school in the UK.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
RuthP
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 1:07:23 PM

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A cooperator wrote:
Romany wrote:
As for Tertiary education (University) being referred to as "school"?

It's only in AE that this format is used.

So elsewhere 'school' only means school - a place for children.


Thanks a lot,
But, NKM, as a native American English speaker, referred to "university" as "college" in the American English, and he didn't refer to "university" as "school", which means "university" (UK English) means "education". On the other hand, "college" means "education" in (US English). However, "school" in both the US, UK English means "school" - a place for children.



In American English: "Funding is a key consideration when you think about college."

I found it in the UK English as follows: "Funding is a key consideration when you think about university."


But, as long as "University", in UK English, and "college", in US English, mean "education", why do we not say "she received an excellent education/ university/college."
"The standard of education/university/college has declined in this country."

This is simply a difference in word choice between AE and BE. In speaking of post-secondary (tertiary) education without reference to any specific institution, AE uses "college" and BE uses "university".

In the US educational system, there is a difference between a university and a college, but both grant tertiary degrees starting at the Bachelor degree level. (We shall omit junior or community colleges as something a bit different.)

A college may be a stand-alone institution, or a part of a university. A university will be composed of divisions which are called--depending upon the university--"schools" or "colleges". There is no difference in the function, just terminology. In the US, at least, schools/colleges within a university are by area of study: school/college of fine arts; school/college of engineering; school/college of mathematics.

Stand-alone colleges are usually smaller institutions. They universally grant Bachelor degrees. (Again, this does not include junior or community colleges.) They may grant advanced degrees, usually only to Master degree level, though in particular I believe religious colleges often grant some form of Doctor of Divinity. When colleges grant advanced degrees, it will be in only one or a couple of areas of study and, as before, often only to Master degree level. A college is divided into "departments" rather than "schools". Faculty are primarily focused on teaching. Individual faculty members may pursue original research, but this is not generally an institutional goal.

Universities (being composed of many colleges/schools) are usually considerably larger institutions. This has been somewhat corrupted in recent decades where, particularly in the case of public colleges/universities (i.e. those part of a state--meaning one of the fifty states, not federal--system of higher education), where it seems every institution has become a university. In the case of smaller "universities", advanced degrees are still usually limited to only a few subjects. The primary change, and the issue other than size differentiating university and college, is that there is a greater institutional focus on original research. This has always been a part of the mission of a university. One (rather cynically) suspects the impetus for this change has been the involvement of the institutions themselves in ownership of patents granted in the case of results from applied research--and, of course, the receipt of a portion of any income from said patents. In my opinion, this subverts the original purpose of university research, which was investigation into the unknown. But that's another topic.
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 1:09:36 PM
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Drago - nope. Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, and even places where English is not the first language but the lingua franca....do not refer to Uni as school or as College.(Tho perhaps Canada does, due to them living on the same continent as America.) In fact the Human Resources person at one place I was at had spent a couple of years turning down applicants whose cover letters cited "Four years College" or "Four years at school in Washington"; because she thought that meant they didn't have University degrees!
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 1:27:03 PM

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Hi Romany - thanks - so the old Commonwealth and connections still follow the UK forms!

Hello Ruth. That's interesting.

I think that the rules have changed over the past twenty-thirty years since I really had anything to do with it.
Back then it used to be:
School - up to sixteen years old, you earned 'Ordinary Level' school certs (five or six was OK) most grammar-school kids took seven or eight subjects.
"Sixth Form" at school - an extra two years studying specialist subjects and taking three or so "Advanced Level" exams. Up to eighteen years old.

Prep College
- After finishing school at sixteen, to do "University entrance" qualifications for two years.

College - for anyone after they finish school - age seventeen to one hundred.
Does not do degrees - Ordinary National Cert (in engineering, electronics, mechanics and similar), Higher National Diploma, and similar courses. Higher level than "A-Level", but less than a degree.
One can do some of these courses over a longer period part time at 'night school'.

University - for degrees from Bachelor to the top.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, December 5, 2018 6:41:58 PM

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Thank you all of you very much indeed,

Drag0nspeaker wrote:

It should also be noted that some universities are split into colleges - these are similar to departments, I suppose. One is still 'at university', not 'at college'.
King's College Cambridge
Caius College Cambridge
Balliol College Oxford
Christ Church College Oxford



However, since then

RuthP wrote:
A college is divided into "departments" rather than "schools". Faculty are primarily focused on teaching. Individual faculty members may pursue original research, but this is not generally an institutional goal.


Here in my country, we can use either 'a college' or 'a faculty' for the same building (Faculty/College of Engineering). So, College/faculty is divided into "departments" rather than "schools". And a university is composed of many colleges.
We only can call 'school' for a 'primary school' and 'secondary school'.


I was expecting in the UK, and US, universities are being composed of many colleges, where 'colleges' can be named 'schools/faculties'. And 'colleges'/'schools/faculties' are being composed of many departments.
However, having looked at the website of the University of Glasgow, I found out the following colleges below, each of which is composed of many schools, and no departments are shown at all.

1- College of Medical, Veterinary & Life Sciences:-
School of Life Sciences
Dental School
School of Medicine, Dentistry & Nursing
School of Veterinary Medicine


2- College of Science & Engineering: The College is made up of 7 academic schools:-
School of Chemistry
School of Computing Science
School of Engineering
School of Geographical & Earth Sciences
School of Mathematics & Statistics
School of Physics & Astronomy
School of Psychology

3- College of Social Sciences:-
Adam Smith Business School
School of Education
School of Interdisciplinary Studies
School of Law
School of Social & Political Sciences

4- College of Arts:-
School of Critical Studies
School of Culture & Creative Arts
School of Humanities | Sgoil nan Daonnachdan
School of Modern Languages & Cultures




As a result, I think even in the UK, universities can be composed of many colleges, which are composed of many schools.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 1:48:36 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi!

It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".


Drag0nspeaker,

As you said two, but you left one since the article are in three ways: the defining one (the), non-defining one (a, an) and zero article.
He is at the school at the end of the road."[/b][/color] - a specific, definite school.
He's at a school right now."[/b] - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning"
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, December 16, 2018 1:50:30 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi!

It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".
"If you want to see him, he's working in the garden at the hospital in High Street." - a definite hospital.
"You can't see him till next week. He's in hospital." - The general concept of "being treated medically in a hospital somewhere". It doesn't matter which one. it's enough to know that "he's in hospital".


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi!

It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".


Drag0nspeaker,

As you said two, but you left one since the article are in three ways: the defining one (the), non-defining one (a, an) and zero article.
He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
He's at a school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning"[/b]
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 17, 2018 3:37:40 PM

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Would anyone please be so kind as to address these points below for me:

Drag0nspeaker wrote:

It should also be noted that some universities are split into colleges - these are similar to departments, I suppose. One is still 'at university', not 'at college'.
King's College Cambridge
Caius College Cambridge
Balliol College Oxford
Christ Church College Oxford



However, since then

RuthP wrote:
A college is divided into "departments" rather than "schools". Faculty are primarily focused on teaching. Individual faculty members may pursue original research, but this is not generally an institutional goal.


Here in my country, we can use either 'a college' or 'a faculty' for the same building (Faculty/College of Engineering). So, College/faculty is divided into "departments" rather than "schools". And a university is composed of many colleges.
We only can call 'school' for a 'primary school' and 'secondary school'.


I was expecting in the UK, and US, universities are being composed of many colleges, where 'colleges' can be named 'schools/faculties'. And 'colleges'/'schools/faculties' are being composed of many departments.
However, having looked at the website of the University of Glasgow, I found out the following colleges below, each of which is composed of many schools, and no departments are shown at all.

1- College of Medical, Veterinary & Life Sciences:-
School of Life Sciences
Dental School
School of Medicine, Dentistry & Nursing
School of Veterinary Medicine


2- College of Science & Engineering: The College is made up of 7 academic schools:-
School of Chemistry
School of Computing Science
School of Engineering
School of Geographical & Earth Sciences
School of Mathematics & Statistics
School of Physics & Astronomy
School of Psychology

3- College of Social Sciences:-
Adam Smith Business School
School of Education
School of Interdisciplinary Studies
School of Law
School of Social & Political Sciences

4- College of Arts:-
School of Critical Studies
School of Culture & Creative Arts
School of Humanities | Sgoil nan Daonnachdan
School of Modern Languages & Cultures




As a result, I think even in the UK, universities can be composed of many colleges, which are composed of many schools.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 4:19:27 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi!

It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".
"If you want to see him, he's working in the garden at the hospital in High Street." - a definite hospital.
"You can't see him till next week. He's in hospital." - The general concept of "being treated medically in a hospital somewhere". It doesn't matter which one. it's enough to know that "he's in hospital".


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi!

It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".


Drag0nspeaker,
You mentioned two types of article, but you left one kind of them since the article are in three ways: the defining one (the), non-defining one (a, an) and zero article.
"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school. (the definite article 'the')
"He's at a school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning" (the indefinite article 'a')
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning". (the zero article)


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 4:33:39 PM

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Could anyone please at this splendid forum take some their precious time out to address these points below for me?

Drag0nspeaker wrote:

It should also be noted that some universities are split into colleges - these are similar to departments, I suppose. One is still 'at university', not 'at college'.
King's College Cambridge
Caius College Cambridge
Balliol College Oxford
Christ Church College Oxford



However, since then

RuthP wrote:
A college is divided into "departments" rather than "schools". Faculty are primarily focused on teaching. Individual faculty members may pursue original research, but this is not generally an institutional goal.


Here in my country, we can use either 'a college' or 'a faculty' for the same building (Faculty/College of Engineering). So, College/faculty is divided into "departments" rather than "schools". And a university is composed of many colleges.
We only can call 'school' for a 'primary school' and 'secondary school'.


I was expecting in the UK, and US, universities are being composed of many colleges, where 'colleges' can be named 'schools/faculties'. And 'colleges'/'schools/faculties' are being composed of many departments.
However, having looked at the website of the University of Glasgow, I found out the following colleges below, each of which is composed of many schools, and no departments are shown at all.

1- College of Medical, Veterinary & Life Sciences:-
School of Life Sciences
Dental School
School of Medicine, Dentistry & Nursing
School of Veterinary Medicine


2- College of Science & Engineering: The College is made up of 7 academic schools:-
School of Chemistry
School of Computing Science
School of Engineering
School of Geographical & Earth Sciences
School of Mathematics & Statistics
School of Physics & Astronomy
School of Psychology

3- College of Social Sciences:-
Adam Smith Business School
School of Education
School of Interdisciplinary Studies
School of Law
School of Social & Political Sciences

4- College of Arts:-
School of Critical Studies
School of Culture & Creative Arts
School of Humanities | Sgoil nan Daonnachdan
School of Modern Languages & Cultures




As a result, I think even in the UK, universities can be composed of many colleges, which are composed of many schools.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
thar
Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 4:59:54 PM

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You are expecting some sort of UK standard system. There is no simple system!

These names have arisen in different situations throughout history.
In the old universities colleges are administrative unit where originally the students lived and the college had charge of them. A lot has changed since then, but the college system in some old universities follows that system. You can do any subject in any college (apart from specialist theology colleges, maybe) - it is a 'living' unit.

Quote:
Peterhouse is a constituent college of the University of Cambridge. It is the oldest college of the university, having been founded in 1284 by Hugo de Balsham, Bishop of Ely, and granted its charter by King Edward I. Today, Peterhouse has 254 undergraduates, 116 full-time graduate students and 54 fellows.


They don't even have to be particularly old universities, although not many newer ones have that college system.
Quote:
The Colleges of Durham University are residential colleges which are the primary source of accommodation and support services for undergraduates and postgraduates at Durham University, as well as providing bursaries and scholarships to students. They also provide funding and/or accommodation for some of the research posts in the University. All students at the University are required to be members of one of the colleges.

Durham University has 16 colleges, of which University College is the oldest, founded in 1832. The newest college is Josephine Butler, founded in 2006. The last single sex college, St Mary's, became mixed in 2005 with the admittance of male undergraduates.


St Andrews University also has a college system,but that is because it is also an old university. (Apparently there was an argument in 1410 over who was the real Pope so they set up St Andrews in opposition to Paris, and because England and Scotland were at war at the time so their students weren't going to Oxford or Cambridge. Whistle )



In contrast, Imperial College London is a much more recent university, and was set up as a sort of 'science park' in 1907. It combined existing colleges that specialised in particular science subjects of the industrial revolution - the Royal College of Science, the Royal School of Mines and the City & Guilds College (it has since gained an agricultural college and medical school, and maybe more). These were/are separate colleges, with separate college unions and a great rivalry in rugby teams and mascot kidnappings!

Other universities have a 'college' of something, which is founded as an administrative unit within the university. Some universities, particularly modern ones, are formed by the amalgamation of different colleges to form a university, and the colleges retain their identity.

In some cases, the university is much less famous than the colleges that were put together. Particularly with art schools, they were outside the traditional university system, so when for reasons of funding and marketing the art schools want to form an umbrella 'university', they do so. But the colleges are still the teaching entities.
eg The University of the Arts London (UAL) consists of: Camberwell College of Arts, Central Saint Martins, Chelsea College of Arts, London College of Communication, London College of Fashion, Wimbledon College of Arts.

In contrast, another group of art schools that did the same thing, and combined to form the University for the Creative Arts (UCA), has dropped the names and now considers it has 'campuses' in various towns in South-East England. (Except the locals don't pay any attention to that, of course, and still call their local campus by its old name, in my experience.)

There is no overall system - these were named at different times in different circumstances and have different histories. It is all about the individual institution and what names it has chosen to give its various parts.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 5:26:28 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,432
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
thar wrote:
You are expecting some sort of UK standard system. There is no simple system!

These names have arisen in different situations throughout history.
In the old universities colleges are administrative unit where originally the students lived and the college had charge of them. A lot has changed since then, but the college system in some old universities follows that system. You can do any subject in any college (apart from specialist theology colleges, maybe) - it is a 'living' unit.

Quote:
Peterhouse is a constituent college of the University of Cambridge. It is the oldest college of the university, having been founded in 1284 by Hugo de Balsham, Bishop of Ely, and granted its charter by King Edward I. Today, Peterhouse has 254 undergraduates, 116 full-time graduate students and 54 fellows.


In contrast, Imperial College London is a much more recent university, was set up as a sort of 'science park' in 1907 it combined existing colleges that specialised in particular science subjects of the industrial revolution - the Royal College of Science, the Royal School of Mines and the City & Guilds College (it has since gained an agricultural college and medical school, and maybe more). These were/are separate colleges, with separate college unions and a great rivalry in rugby teams!

Other universities have a 'college' of something, which is founded as an administrative unit within the university. Some universities, particularly modern ones, are formed by the amalgamation of different colleges to form a university, and the colleges retain their identity.

There is no overall system - these were named at different times in different circumstances and have different histories. It is all about the individual institution and what names it has chosen to give its various parts.


Thanks a lot, Thar,
In my country, we can only use either the term 'a college' or 'a faculty' for the same building (Faculty/College of Engineering), where College/faculty is divided into "departments" rather than "schools". And a university is composed of many colleges.
We only can call 'school' for a 'primary school' and 'secondary school'. "University> College> Departement" is a university standard system which is much easier to be understood than "University> College> School" since 'school' can be confusing someone as "college".


So, are you saying, in the UK, and US, that some universities are composed of many colleges, where 'colleges' can be also named with 'faculties'. And 'colleges/faculties' are composed of many departments.
I have seen, on the website of the University of Glasgow, colleges, each of which is composed of many schools, and no departments are shown at all. That system is strange. It's usual to me that a college is composed of many departments, and not schools. Do you consider 'schools' as 'departments?

I even found the Robert Gordon University, in Scotland, has the same standard system as the University of Glasgow.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
BobShilling
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2019 1:32:01 PM
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A cooperator, you could save yourself a lot of concern if you simply re-read thar's words:
thar wrote:
You are expecting some sort of UK standard system. There is no simple system![...]
It is all about the individual institution and what names it has chosen to give its various parts.


No matter how many ways you frame your questions, there is no all-embracing answer. Different institutions use the words college, school, faculty, institute, department, etc, in different ways.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:41:50 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2011
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Thank you all of you very much indeed,

Could anyone please at this splendid forum take some of their precious time out to answer this question of mine to end this matter?
I have a problem confusing between a noun modified by a zero article and indefinite articles 'a'/'an'.

As Drag0nspeaker, mentioned below two types of article, but he left one kind of them since the article are in three ways: the defining one (the), non-defining one (a, an) and zero article.
"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school. (the definite article 'the')
"He's at a school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning" (the indefinite article 'a')
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning". (the zero article)


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi!
It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".
"If you want to see him, he's working in the garden at the hospital in High Street." - a definite hospital.
"You can't see him till next week. He's in hospital." - The general concept of "being treated medically in a hospital somewhere". It doesn't matter which one. it's enough to know that "he's in hospital".


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi!

It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".







Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 5:06:46 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,432
Neurons: 12,838
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Could anyone please at this splendid forum take some of their precious time out to answer this question of mine to end this matter?
Firstly: I have a problem confusing between a noun modified by a zero article and by indefinite articles 'a'/'an'.

As Drag0nspeaker, mentioned below two types of article, but he left one kind of them since the article are in three ways: the defining one (the), non-defining one (a, an) and zero article.
"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school. (the definite article 'the')
"He's at a school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning" (the indefinite article 'a')
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning". (the zero article)


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi!
It is similar for institutions, when the reference is indefinite.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".
"If you want to see him, he's working in the garden at the hospital in High Street." - a definite hospital.
"You can't see him till next week. He's in hospital." - The general concept of "being treated medically in a hospital somewhere". It doesn't matter which one. it's enough to know that "he's in hospital".




Secondly: while looking at the bottom of an email message sent to me by a person works for as the Office Manager of the General Executive Director an private establishment, in the information of his address, I found he didn't modify 'office manager', 'General Executive Director', 'Coordinator', and 'Scholarships Department' with the definite article 'the'. I think, they must be modified with the definite article 'the' since 'Office Manager' is specific, 'General Executive Director' is specific, 'Coordinator' is specific, and 'Scholarships Department' is specific. So, they are all in order 'a definite office manager', 'a definite general executive director', 'a definite coordinator', and ' a definite Scholarships Department'. Is there any all-embracing rule of modifying nouns by an article in such addresses usually written in administrative hierarchy or not?

Mr. Mohsin Mobarak Ba-Qutayan
Office Manager of General Executive Director
Coordinator of Scholarships Department
Hadhramout Establishment for Human Development (HEHD)
Address : Mukalla - Hadhramout - Yemen
Tel : XXX
Fax : XXXX
Mobile : XXXX
E mail : XXXXX

I think it must be written as:
Mr. Mohsin Mobarak Ba-Qutayan
The Office Manager of the General Executive Director
The Coordinator of the Scholarships Department
Hadhramout Establishment for Human Development (HEHD)




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
palapaguy
Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 11:06:25 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/28/2013
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Location: Calabasas, California, United States
A cooperator wrote:
Could anyone please at this splendid forum take some of their precious time out to answer this question of mine to end this matter?


Coop, you can get much better support from a paid professional source like this:

https://preply.com/en/skype/english-tutors

And they provide spoken English language training in addition to written language help. Have you tried any paid English instruction sources?
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, February 21, 2019 7:53:58 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 32,367
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi.
In order to 'end this matter' - as you said on February 18th, I'll answer those two questions.

1. There are three possibilities, as you said - the definite article, the indefinite article and 'no article'.

"He is at the school at the end of the road." - a specific, definite school - the building at the end of the road which is a school.
"He is at a school right now." - a building which is a school, but I don't say definitely which building.
"He's at school right now." - the indefinite concept of "a place of learning".

It is necessary to look at ALL the definitions of "school".

There are several which are physically "concrete" nouns:
- The building in which teaching takes place.
- The institution which engages in teaching and study.
- The group of all students studying at such an institution
and several more.

These concrete nouns use the articles/determiners ("the", "a", "some") - though sometimes there is 'no article' when the plural noun is used.
Which article is used depends on other factors in the sentence and the environment (whether the speaker is referring to something definite and known, or something indefinite and vague).

There is one definition which is an abstract, intangible noun.
- The process of being educated formally, especially education constituting a planned series of courses over a number of years: The children were put to school at home. What do you plan to do when you finish school? - This is the meaning which does not take an article. It's a pure concept - the concept of 'education' or 'learning' or 'being at a place where one learns'.

************
Concerning Mr. Mohsin Mobarak Ba-Qutayan.
You write "I think it must be written as:
Mr. Mohsin Mobarak Ba-Qutayan
The Office Manager of the General Executive Director"


There is no "must" - there is no grammar-god who says how anyone must speak.

To quote thar:
thar wrote:
You are expecting some sort of UK standard system. There is no simple system![...]
It is all about the individual institution and what names it has chosen to give its various parts.


If HEHD have decided that his title and position is "Office Manager of General Executive Director,
Coordinator of Scholarships Department, Hadhramout Establishment for Human Development", then that is what it is.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, February 21, 2019 7:37:37 PM

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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi.

************
Concerning Mr. Mohsin Mobarak Ba-Qutayan.
You write "I think it must be written as:
Mr. Mohsin Mobarak Ba-Qutayan
The Office Manager of the General Executive Director"


There is no "must" - there is no grammar-god who says how anyone must speak.

To quote thar:
thar wrote:
You are expecting some sort of UK standard system. There is no simple system![...]
It is all about the individual institution and what names it has chosen to give its various parts.


If HEHD have decided that his title and position is "Office Manager of General Executive Director,
Coordinator of Scholarships Department, Hadhramout Establishment for Human Development", then that is what it is.


Drag0nspeaker, but the person, himself, who emailed me, formated his address information to be shown as I listed before. He has been appointed as The Office Manager of the General Executive Director". But, he only wrote 'Office Manager of General Executive Director". I think the definite article 'the' should be there since he has been appointed for a specific, defining job.
The same thing is in 'The Coordinator of the Scholarships Department' since the department is specific.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
BobShilling
Posted: Friday, February 22, 2019 6:28:03 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/1/2018
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Location: Beroun, Stredocesky, Czech Republic
A cooperator wrote:
Drag0nspeaker, but the person, himself, who emailed me, formated his address information to be shown as I listed before. He has been appointed as The Office Manager of the General Executive Director". But, he only wrote 'Office Manager of General Executive Director". I think the definite article 'the' should be there since he has been appointed for a specific, defining job.
The same thing is in 'The Coordinator of the Scholarships Department' since the department is specific.


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
There is no "must" - there is no grammar-god who says how anyone must speak.

There is no "should", either.

When people put their job title under their name at the end of a letter/email, they almost never use an article. It does not matter whether the job title is held by several people:

Bob Shilling
Marketing Executive


or by only one person:

Bob Shilling
Managing Director


A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, February 23, 2019 9:17:10 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,432
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
BobShilling wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Drag0nspeaker, but the person, himself, who emailed me, formated his address information to be shown as I listed before. He has been appointed as The Office Manager of the General Executive Director". But, he only wrote 'Office Manager of General Executive Director". I think the definite article 'the' should be there since he has been appointed for a specific, defining job.
The same thing is in 'The Coordinator of the Scholarships Department' since the department is specific.


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
There is no "must" - there is no grammar-god who says how anyone must speak.

There is no "should", either.

When people put their job title under their name at the end of a letter/email, they almost never use an article. It does not matter whether the job title is held by several people:

Bob Shilling
Marketing Executive


or by only one person:

Bob Shilling
Managing Director



Bob Shilling

Having said it doesn't matter whether job title is held by several people or by only one person, I was asking myself why then we see that job titles which are held by several people are capitalized
For instance, if there is a university having many of the members of teaching staff with different education degree, teaching assistant(one with a bachelor degree), assistant instructor(one with at least a master degree), assistant professor (one with PhD), Associated professor(one with PhD and some researches) and the higher posistin

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, February 23, 2019 9:41:27 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,432
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Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
BobShilling wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Drag0nspeaker, but the person, himself, who emailed me, formated his address information to be shown as I listed before. He has been appointed as The Office Manager of the General Executive Director". But, he only wrote 'Office Manager of General Executive Director". I think the definite article 'the' should be there since he has been appointed for a specific, defining job.
The same thing is in 'The Coordinator of the Scholarships Department' since the department is specific.


Drag0nspeaker wrote:
There is no "must" - there is no grammar-god who says how anyone must speak.

There is no "should", either.

When people put their job title under their name at the end of a letter/email, they almost never use an article. It does not matter whether the job title is held by several people:

Bob Shilling
Marketing Executive


or by only one person:

Bob Shilling
Managing Director



Bob Shilling

Having said it doesn't matter whether the job title is held by several people or by only one person, I am now asking myself why then we see that job titles which are held by several people are capitalized.
For instance, if there is a university having many of the members of teaching staff with different varying education degrees, teaching assistant(one with a bachelor degree), assistant instructor(one with at least a master degree), assistant professor (one with PhD), Associated professor(one with PhD and some researches) and professor(one with associate chair), the highest position in a university.
I think that a university has several members holding the same job. So, there is no need to capitalize any of the academic job titles above if I am going to save the members in database file according to these fields:
Name & personal title:
Job title:
Company:
Address:

But, some times I see some assistant professors, although they don't hold any job titles related to the administrative hierarchy, that they capitalize their holding education degrees. For instance

Dr. Armando A. Rodriguez, PhD
Assistant Professor
University of Hadhramout.

Even in the marketing companies, I think there are several people holding the same position. So, there is no need to capitalize their positions. Though I see you capitalised:
Bob Shilling
Marketing Executive



As a result, there is no all-embracing rule of writing the job titles which describe what a person does as his job and the job titles which describe the responsibilities for a person in administrative hierarchy?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, February 23, 2019 10:04:41 AM
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Joined: 4/1/2018
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Location: Beroun, Stredocesky, Czech Republic
A cooperator wrote:

As a result, there is no all-embracing rule of writing the job titles which describe what a person does as his job and the job titles which describe the responsibilities for a person in administrative hierarchy?

There is indeed no absolute rule about the capitalisation of the initial letters of job titles. However, it is usual for job titles/roles mentioned under a name used with/as a signature to be capitalised.

Best wishes

Bob Shilling
Forum Responder
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, February 23, 2019 12:53:31 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,432
Neurons: 12,838
Location: Ḩāḑírah, Hadramawt, Yemen
BobShilling wrote:
A cooperator wrote:

As a result, there is no all-embracing rule of writing the job titles which describe what a person does as his job and the job titles which describe the responsibilities for a person in administrative hierarchy?

There is indeed no absolute rule about the capitalisation of the initial letters of job titles. However, it is usual for job titles/roles mentioned under a name used with/as a signature to be capitalised.

Best wishes

Bob Shilling
Forum Responder


Thanks a lot,
Then that would let me rethink of the matter of the capitalization of initial letters of job title while saving any group of employees in the contacts of my cellphone or my Google account since I was capitalising any job title regardless if it is held by only one person or several people.


I think if a person holds a responsibility position, then job title in that field of that contact address above should be capitalized. If a person just does his job, then if we are going to fill in the "job title" field, I won't need to capitalize it. For instance, John has a doctorate degree, and he's been working at the university of Glasgow as an assistant professor(his job), then "assistant professor" shouldn't be capitalized. Do you have any other suggestions?
Name & personal title: Dr John
Company: University of Glasgow
Job Title: assistant professor

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, February 23, 2019 2:05:15 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/1/2018
Posts: 901
Neurons: 5,388
Location: Beroun, Stredocesky, Czech Republic
A cooperator wrote:

Then that would let me rethink of the matter of the capitalization of initial letters of job title while saving any group of employees in the contacts of my cellphone or my Google account since I was capitalising any job title regardless if it is held by only one person or several people.


You can do what you like with your own phones and accounts.


Quote:
I think if a person holds a responsibility position, then job title in that field of that contact address above should be capitalized. If a person just does his job, then if we are going to fill in the "job title" field, I won't need to capitalize it. For instance, John has a doctorate degree, and he's been working at the university of Glasgow as an assistant professor(his job), then "assistant professor" shouldn't be capitalized. Do you have any other suggestions?
Name & personal title: Dr John
Company: University of Glasgow
Job Title: assistant professor


My suggestion to myself is not to bother responding to your questions in future. Whatever native speakers/teachers/helpful members say, you usually plough on regardless with your own ideas. I would be better off doing something more satisfying, like watching paint dry.
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