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Masonry - a great historical mistake? Options
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:47:59 AM

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Hello, everybody!

I've read the "Legend of Adoniram" (I understand in English it is also known as Hiramic Legend) and wanted to share my take on it and it allegedly being one of the foundations of the global masonry movement.

(By the way, I wanted to post a link to the legend's English text but failed to find one. The Russian texts all seem to be based on translation of the 1863 French book "Les secrets et sociétés secrètes" by Compte le Couteulx de Canteleu).

Now, I am not an expert at all, so I am sure I must be missing a lot of nuances and would be grateful, too, to anybody who helps me to fill these gaps, but here is what I think:

1. This is not and should have never become a worldwide story. This is an internal Jewish story - about a conflict between two different strains within Jewish people (Cain's kin vs. Avel's kin). So the first mistake was that this conflict was somehow projected on the whole world and other people.

2. Another and very practical implication of #1, is that although the legend may seem to lay grounds for a strive to overthrow earthly kings, in fact it again refers only to (one line of) Jewish kings. It has nothing to do whatsoever with, for example, Indo-European kings/tsars, or those in other parts of the world. And then it follows that the five-pointed star on the United States national flag and that in the post-1917 Russia (still there on Kremlin towers), which is allegedly a masonry symbol marking the overthrow of the power of kings, has in fact never belonged to any of these places. It may be a legitimate symbol somewhere in the Middle East, but historically completely out of place in the middle of the Eurasian and/or American continents.

For me this has been a revelation. But again, I've never known much about these things.

So I'd be very interested to know what other people think.





Romany
Posted: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:20:04 AM
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Kirill -

I've only learned about the Masons as they were involved in Renaissance architecture and building; which has more to do with Guilds than with ancient religious disputes, I'm afraid. In discussion with contemporary Masons, religion has never reared its head, so I am completely ignorant of the origins of the Hiramic Legend and what part that used to play. Modern Masons seem to see it as some ancient legend, just the same way most people regard the stories in ancient holy texts. So I'm completely unable to discuss what you are saying.

I have, however, come across this, which seems to mirror what I've been told by contemporary Masons: that the Hiramic Legend is just an old allegory -

http://www.knightstemplar.org/KnightTemplar/articles/20101132.htm

By the way, the descriptive word referencing members of The Masons is "masonic". i.e. "global Masonic movement." "A gobal mason movement" would refer to all those millions of people globally who work with masonary. Only a miniscule percentage of them would also be members of a Masonic movement.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 4:50:55 AM

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Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
Thank you, Romany.

This is a very nice article and a lot of thoughts there that I personally share and wholeheartedly support. Only it seems to me pretty much unrelated to the actual text of the legend - at least the one that I have been able to get hold of (maybe there exist different versions).

And many thanks, too, for correcting my linguistic mistakes. So I understand the correct words are:

Masonry - for a social / historical phenomenon
Masonic - adjective, e.g. "Masonic movement"
Mason - an individual memeber of that movement.

Right?
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 4:26:22 PM
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masonry = is stone or brickwork
mason = someone who works with stone or bricks.

Masonic = pertaining to the Order of Freemasons
Mason = a member of the Order of Freemasons.
leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 9:52:57 PM

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Location: Miami, Florida, United States
Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
Hello, everybody!

I've read the "Legend of Adoniram" (I understand in English it is also known as Hiramic Legend) and wanted to share my take on it and it allegedly being one of the foundations of the global masonry movement.

(By the way, I wanted to post a link to the legend's English text but failed to find one. The Russian texts all seem to be based on translation of the 1863 French book "Les secrets et sociétés secrètes" by Compte le Couteulx de Canteleu).

Now, I am not an expert at all, so I am sure I must be missing a lot of nuances and would be grateful, too, to anybody who helps me to fill these gaps, but here is what I think:

1. This is not and should have never become a worldwide story. This is an internal Jewish story - about a conflict between two different strains within Jewish people (Cain's kin vs. Avel's kin). So the first mistake was that this conflict was somehow projected on the whole world and other people.

2. Another and very practical implication of #1, is that although the legend may seem to lay grounds for a strive to overthrow earthly kings, in fact it again refers only to (one line of) Jewish kings. It has nothing to do whatsoever with, for example, Indo-European kings/tsars, or those in other parts of the world. And then it follows that the five-pointed star on the United States national flag and that in the post-1917 Russia (still there on Kremlin towers), which is allegedly a masonry symbol marking the overthrow of the power of kings, has in fact never belonged to any of these places. It may be a legitimate symbol somewhere in the Middle East, but historically completely out of place in the middle of the Eurasian and/or American continents.

For me this has been a revelation. But again, I've never known much about these things.

So I'd be very interested to know what other people think.


There have been many things said about Freemasonry, and associated so-called secret societies. Most of them are "true", for certain values of truth. Please accept what I say about it with a measure of skepticism, yet I encourage you to keep my description in mind as a sort of "touch stone" when evaluating anything said about Freemasonry.

In its essence, Freemasonry is designed to afford the human need for psychological and social ritual with a rational basis. Masonic rites and symbols have been chosen for their historical references, yet in its purest form, it intends to use these as examples of human nature with the option to do better than history.

In the context of most of Europe, the Christian Bible — both Old and New Testament — has played an indisputable role in society. Central to the book of Exodus is the emergence of a Jewish identity free of Egyptian hegemony. This story and its corollaries are broadly drawn upon and recast as allegories for the Masonic point of view.

To read any of this as literal fact would be to miss the point entirely, and would be to engage in the same sort of superstition which it is intended to dispel.



"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, November 22, 2018 4:54:14 AM

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I had to read this several times, and make adjustment for the required skepticism, and after all I think I am starting to see some great points here.
Thank you, Leon.

One question is whether those allegories still help or begin to impede.
And a much bigger question is what kind of "better than history" world we want to achieve. Looks like the range of visions is so broad that they cannot be consoliated.

For example, for me the ideal world is one of free creative people, responsible and competent masters. I think the world is quite good "as created" (I've become sort of a "non-affiliated likely creationist" after years of scientific studies). To me, the world problems are human faults that we the humans must find mental force and resolve to fix. At the same time, obviously there are others whose vision is quite different - they want a kind of "matrix", where a few control masses, hence all this push for wealth concentration and mind-manipulation. I don't think I can ever reconcile myself with this latter vision. Hopefully I am not alone.
Romany
Posted: Thursday, November 22, 2018 3:58:35 PM
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Kirill -

I was intrigued by the title of the thread - but even now I don't understand at all why you consider Freemasonry "a great historical mistake"?

FWIW - remember I said my knowledge was based on Freemasonary as evolving from the early Guilds? I've found a site - written by a Freemason - which pretty much encapsulates what I know about that subject: just so you can see where I'm coming from:
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/guild.html

While searching I came across this article from the BBC which blew me away! Had never come across Scotland as the birthplace of Freemasonary before.
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20161209-secret-history-of-the-freemasons-in-scotland

(a propos - our Curator has spent most of this year in London where he was called in as consultant to the historical discovery and restoration of a 14thC Guild Hall. It's been a fascinating journey: and to cap it off he discovered a Roman Temple below the site! He's taking us all there to see for ourselves in January. We (nerds?) can't wait!)
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, November 23, 2018 6:24:25 AM

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That was with a questionmark.

Thanks for the link.
Think Boo hoo!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 5:25:34 AM

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Romany wrote:
It's been a fascinating journey: and to cap it off he discovered a Roman Temple below the site!


Hello, Romany!
To which god is that Temple?

Romany
Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 9:03:58 AM
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Hey Kirill -
actually, I've forgotton: our involvement pertains purely to the Medieval period - the Roman connection is being handled by experts in that period. But I can ask tomorrow if you would like. Am working completely from home today.

Of course our Curator will write a paper about the entire project - though it won't be published till next year. I could send you a link to it when it is published, if you'd like?

Re your post title: Yep, I understand that you wrote the title with a question mark. But I was (am) still interested to know what it is makes you think that Freemasonary could be considered a "great, historical mistake"? It's a viewpoint I've never heard voiced before (unless in general terms concerning societies/institutions which have appeared throughout our history.) so am intrigued.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 6:36:16 PM

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I only know the rumours and myths - I haven't seen the real secrets of the Freemasons, which may say differently.

The Templars were warrior-monks basically. Their original "job-description" was to make the pilgrim routes to Jerusalem safe.

The Temple was Solomon's Temple, which was on Temple Mount (where currently the Dome of the Rock stands) in Jerusalem.

It was a temple of the Israelites, but was holy to the Christians (as Jews, Muslims and Christians worship the same god - the god of the book known in the Western world as "The Old Testament").

EDITED to add:
There are further rumours that this god is also known under other names in other cultures.
Mithras (of the Romans) was born of a virgin on the shortest day (about 25th December) and was visited by three Magi - and died and rose again.
Ra - Sun god of the ancient Egyptians - also shares several attributes with both.

There is a story that the Freemasons are actually worshippers of Ra . . .

No-one who is not an upper-level Freemason really knows for sure.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2018 7:44:30 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/4/2016
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Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
Romany wrote:
Hey Kirill -
actually, I've forgotton: our involvement pertains purely to the Medieval period - the Roman connection is being handled by experts in that period. But I can ask tomorrow if you would like. Am working completely from home today.

Of course our Curator will write a paper about the entire project - though it won't be published till next year. I could send you a link to it when it is published, if you'd like?

Re your post title: Yep, I understand that you wrote the title with a question mark. But I was (am) still interested to know what it is makes you think that Freemasonary could be considered a "great, historical mistake"? It's a viewpoint I've never heard voiced before (unless in general terms concerning societies/institutions which have appeared throughout our history.) so am intrigued.


Hello, Romany! Yes, thanks - I'd love a link to that paper when it is available.

Regarding the title of this thread -
The only thing I knew about Freemasons before I stumbled on that one particular myth (the Hiramic legend) was that Russian Freemasons (allegedly) participated or were instrumental in the Russian 1917 revolutions (overthrow of Nicolas II in February 1917 and subsequent bolshevik revolution in October of the same year). And since those revolutions brought about enormous losses and devastation in my country, my original idea of Freemasonry was not a favourable one.

Now, the legend, the way I understood it, is about an honest and creative leader versus a greedy and cunning king. And with that, the former is associated with Satan while the latter - with the Old Testament God. If that were the case then I'd be on Satan's side, but I think that's a matter of labels only. Perhaps lots of reasonable people who'd read the legend would feel like me - their sympathies would be on the honest and creative leader's side. So that's Okay (with me anyway). But then the question is- when the Freemasons (again, allegedly) helped overthrow Russian tsar, disassociate America from European powers - to give only the two examples that I've heard of - did they hit the right targets? Into whose hands did they actually played? Was it part of Freemasonry's deliberate policy, or perhaps a series of mistakes?

Hence the title of this thread with a questionmark.

I am grateful for the links provided in this thread, I have read some of that, but I am still puzzled with the same question - most of what's written in there sounds reasonable and constructive to me. But then why have the actual political results been so starkingly different?
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2018 8:10:26 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

There are further rumours that this god is also known under other names in other cultures.
Mithras (of the Romans) was born of a virgin on the shortest day (about 25th December) and was visited by three Magi - and died and rose again.
Ra - Sun god of the ancient Egyptians - also shares several attributes with both.

There is a story that the Freemasons are actually worshippers of Ra . . .


I think this is agreat point. In the 21st century people can hardly hope to develop an appealing message by taking one (of many) cultural / religeous tradition out of all the other context. I mean, of course, Bible and all that's related to it. I am neither a historian nor a theologist, but I guess if we took all the sources from all cultures and see what they have in common - then most of the irrelevant elements would get "filtered out", and that would leave only a few points. Perhaps the idea of creation, then perhaps the idea of good and evil, maybe male versus female elements... I am just guessing. And then what little the ancestors have to tell us would also have to be coupled with all the scientific data accumulated to date. There's quite a lot that we know, already, both about our own history and the world.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:

There is a story that the Freemasons are actually worshippers of Ra . . .
No-one who is not an upper-level Freemason really knows for sure.


My worst suspicion is that the upper-level ones may care about money most of all, as it must be an economic empire I imagine, along with a society united by an ideology. I'd love to be mistaken.

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2018 9:37:30 PM

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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Yeah - there are rumours and conspiracy theories.
The one which I see/hear most (though I don't discuss or read about the Masons much) is that they are interested in power, rather than money as such (though power and money tend to go together). The top Masons (the ones no-one actually knows) are the same "THEY" who control all governments and actually tell America, Russia, the EU, the South American Drug-lords etc etc what to do.
All to gain MORE power over everyone. . .

I just (by accident) found this - which relates to what I said about the Temple.
Quote:

Masons allow the Jewish Tanakh (Old Testament), Chistian Bible, and the Koran on the altar, as a nod to three Abrahamic religions. A requirement of freemasons is to be believers in God, or a Supreme Bring. One need not necessarily be a member of the Abrahamic religions, per se.

It's from this blog.
The spelling mistakes are from the original.

Here's a picture of George Washington in Mason's 'uniform', laying the foundation-stone of the US Capitol.




Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2018 5:20:38 AM

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Right, it looks like it - power and control no matter what it takes.

No, thanks, in this country we've had enough of that. So hopefully we can know and do better, no matter how many "sanctions" and other crap emanates from US Capitol, EU agencies and the like.
Romany
Posted: Saturday, December 1, 2018 9:27:21 AM
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Kirill,
Oh. NOW I see where you're coming from.

Prior to going to South Africa I'd met a few people whom I learned were Masons - but they were just ordinary people - no capes or daggers or plots.

Then, in RSA, when my father was the District President of the Lions, the Masons frequently volunteered to help and worked beside us all building new schools in rural districts, setting up clinics etc.

Finally, when my children & I were refugees and were in one of the worst dramas of our lives, it was the Masons who lived and had a lodge next door to where my parents had lived on the Isle of Wight, who helped us in those first dreadful days after we landed in the UK the first time.

Apart from that, all I knew/know about them is associated with the medieval Guilds. So, although I had come across people who connected them with Da Vinci Code secret societies and such, I just considered those as hyped up conspiracy theories.

But, I suppose that like any movement/organisation, there might be a huge difference between what happens on the ground, and what goes on in the upper echelons. Just as with the Catholic Church: while most people's experiences might only concern soup kitchen or clinics etc.(or, for thousands of people like Drago and I, schools) set up by Catholics it is undeniable that the whole of the Vatican set-up is as corrupt and political and "secret" as any other huge Corporate organisation or countries.

Interesting, though.

BTW - spoke to my Curator about the temple underneath the Guild Hall. He told me that further discoveries have confused everybody! The area in which the guild sits is in the heart of the old Roman London. So that adjacent and adjoining Roman buildings have to be taken into consideration: and a temple just doesn't seem to fit. So now the experts on Roman London have been called in and are working on it to solve the puzzle. Were it not for the beautifully tesellated floor, they would have predicted a dry-dock or large boathouse occupied that spot!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 6:43:00 AM

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Romany wrote:

But, I suppose that like any movement/organisation, there might be a huge difference between what happens on the ground, and what goes on in the upper echelons.


Yes, of course. I agree.

Romany wrote:

BTW - spoke to my Curator about the temple underneath the Guild Hall. He told me that further discoveries have confused everybody! The area in which the guild sits is in the heart of the old Roman London. So that adjacent and adjoining Roman buildings have to be taken into consideration: and a temple just doesn't seem to fit. So now the experts on Roman London have been called in and are working on it to solve the puzzle. Were it not for the beautifully tesellated floor, they would have predicted a dry-dock or large boathouse occupied that spot!


Very interesting, thank you very much!
I've been to London once on a very short visit, but I did have time to walk in the day and in the night and see the most famous monuments of relatively recent history. If and when I am in London next time I would like to see some of the monuments from Roman era and maybe even earlier times (the only one I'm aware of though is Stone Hedge, and that's of course not in London). And I badly want to see the British Museum, too - I imagine it must be something absolutely exceptional!

A side (but very interesting) question - what is the "District President of the Lions"? What does he/she do?

And also the whole story regarding RSA is new to me. Why did you have to flee? I understand it may be a long story, so if you could just suggest some link or give a very short summery so that I can find myself, I'd be very grateful.
Romany
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 11:01:47 AM
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The Lions are an International Charity composed of businesspeople and completely a-political, and - even in the Apartheid era - completely inclusive of any race, colour or creed on behalf of the members or those they help. My father was the President of the Geo-political area of the South Coast of Natal which extends from North of Durban down to the Southern border. District Presidents are the Head of all the Lions groups which fell into their segment of the country. The National President is the Head of every Lions Club in the country.

I spent 17 years in RSA where both of my children were born. We had to flee as our lives were in danger. We were found, recalled by the RSA Government and had to return for a frightening time until we finally were able to claim sanctuary in Australia where I had lived before and been educated.

Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 7:58:21 AM

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Well, so I understand this was just your personal situation, not a massive campaign of any sort.
It should have been quite a drama then. On the other hand - what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, so I am sure this did make you and your loved ones stronger.
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