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, earlier than had been planned by British prime minister Harold Wilson (the -ing construction) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 5:36:04 AM

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Hi Everyone!

What part of speech is 'earlier than'?
If 'it' was not the subject of the noun clause 'has been planned by British prime minister Harold Wilson', then where is the subject of the noun clause underlined.

In July, a British infantry battalion, led by Lt. Col. Colin Mitchell of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, entered the Crater and managed to occupy the entire district overnight with no casualties. Nevertheless, deadly guerrilla attacks soon resumed, with the British leaving Aden by the end of November 1967, earlier than had been planned by British prime minister Harold Wilson and without an agreement on the succeeding governance.



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thar
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 6:29:18 AM

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The phrases describe how or when they left.
eg
They left early.
They left quickly.
They left on the 3rd of December

Here:
They left earlier than had been planned
[A leaving date had been planned. They left before that date.]

They left without an agreement.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 7:03:42 AM

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thar wrote:
The phrases describe how or when they left.
eg
They left early.
They left quickly.
They left on the 3rd of December

Here:
They left earlier than had been planned
[A leaving date had been planned. They left before that date.]

They left without an agreement.


Thanks a lot, Thar,

But when a reader tries to parse the sentence, s/he will be stumped by where the subject of 'earlier than had been planned by British prime minister Harold Wilson and without an agreement on the succeeding governance.'
I always think there must be a concrete/abstract subject of a clause.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 9:25:10 AM

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It is not a clause - "earlier than had been planned by British prime minister Harold Wilson" is a phrase based on the adverb "earlier".

A clause must have a subject and a predicate including a finite verb. This has no subject and no finite verb. It is a phrase.

"Had been planned" is a participle phrase - you can either choose to say it is based on 'had' or you can decide to say it is based on the past passive form "been planned".

There are several modifying phrases for the simple root sentence - all acting as adverbs.

Main sentence - "deadly guerrilla attacks soon resumed"
Adverb - "nevertheless"
Adverbial phrase - with the British leaving Aden by the end of November 1967
Adverbial phrase - earlier than had been planned by British prime minister Harold Wilson
Adverbial phrase - without an agreement on the succeeding governance



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Y111
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 9:56:54 AM
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The subject is probably 'it', but it is omitted.
... earlier than (it) had been planned.
'it' meaning 'the British leaving Aden'.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, December 3, 2018 10:26:55 AM
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Y111 wrote:
The subject is probably 'it', but it is omitted.
... earlier than (it) had been planned.
'it' meaning 'the British leaving Aden'.

Yes. Compare such phrases as "as follows", "as was often done", "more closely than is normal" etc, where the subject of the clause is likewise omitted.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 1:20:05 PM

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Thank you all of very much,
I really still don't know why "leaving" is used as a present participle here as long as it has a verbal meaning in the sentence. I can compare such phrase as "a time consuming", " a man lying".


"Taking care about my sick mother is a time consuming.
I saw One day a 4-year-old kid saw a man lying in his own blood on the street, he called an ambulance.

"with the British leaving Aden by the end of November 1967"


If I was right, then they would look like reduced relative clauses.
"With the British who left Aden by ..."
"...a time which consumes.
"..... a man who is lying in...."

For "time consuming" or "time wasting" can never be used as nouns, I think, since, in English, I know you form some adjectives using a noun and a present participle or past participle:

- A time-consuming or time-wasting activity

- An experience-enhancing situation

- A money-spending initiative

- A fun-loving child

- An alcohol-fueled evening

- A cash-driven investment

- A gun-toting bandit



BTW, I've quoted this statement out of the Wikipedia website, Crater (Aden) - Wikipedia. You see this statement looks as though a native speaker wrote it or would say it.
If whoever wrote it was not a native English speaker, then s/he would absolutely be somebody who was taught well via a good quality of education since as you stated the sentence is composed of several adverbial phrases. - which means that the sentence is so perfect that none non-native English speakers could have written it. I, myself, will never ever think of phrasing like this phrase although I've been learning English, on not a regular base, for about a four and a half year period.


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Audiendus
Posted: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 10:04:30 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
I really still don't know why "leaving" is used as a present participle here as long as it has a verbal meaning in the sentence. I can compare such phrase as "a time consuming", " a man lying". No, these are all different constructions (and "a time consuming" is incorrect - see below).

"Taking care about my sick mother is a time consuming. This should be "is time-consuming". "Time-consuming" is an adjective; it means that taking care consumes time, not that time consumes something.

I saw One day a 4-year-old kid saw a man lying in his own blood on the street, he called an ambulance. This is a reduced relative clause (= a man who was lying..."

"with the British leaving Aden by the end of November 1967" This is a different construction; it is not a reduced relative clause. It means "and the British left Aden..." It means that there were two events or circumstances; (a) deadly guerrilla attacks soon resumed, and (b) the British left Aden by the end of November 1967. (The "-ing" here does not necessarily imply a continuous tense.) Further examples of this construction:

The tennis match was interrupted by rain, with the last set being played the following day.
Two of the astronauts landed on the moon, with the third remaining in orbit.
With road works delaying the traffic, the journey took longer than expected.
With the explosion happening on the Friday, it was impossible to clear all the debris by the weekend.


If I was right, then they would look like reduced relative clauses.
"With the British who left Aden by ..." No - see above.
"...a time which consumes. No - see above.
"..... a man who was lying in...." Yes.

For "time consuming" or "time wasting" can never be used as nouns, I think
"Time-wasting" can be used as a noun (a gerund), e.g:
"Time-wasting will not be tolerated."
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:47:42 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
"with the British leaving Aden by the end of November 1967" This is a different construction; it is not a reduced relative clause. It means "and the British left Aden..." It means that there were two events or circumstances; (a) deadly guerrilla attacks soon resumed, and (b) the British left Aden by the end of November 1967. (The "-ing" here does not necessarily imply a continuous tense.) Further examples of this construction:

The tennis match was interrupted by rain, with the last set being played the following day.
Two of the astronauts landed on the moon, with the third remaining in orbit.
With road works delaying the traffic, the journey took longer than expected.
With the explosion happening on the Friday, it was impossible to clear all the debris by the weekend.



Thank you so much,
Firstly: but, according to what does an '-ing' imply the past, or continuous, etc., as it implied the past in "with the British leaving Aden"?

Secondly: if I am going to rephrase them as you rephrased the '-ing' in "with the British leaving Aden" as "a) deadly guerrilla attacks soon resumed, and (b) the British left Aden by the end of November 1967.", they'll be as follows

The tennis match was interrupted by rain, with the last set being played the following day.=> The tennis match was interrupted by rain, and the last set was played the following day.
Two of the astronauts landed on the moon, with the third remaining in orbit.=>Two of the astronauts landed on the moon, and the third remained in orbit.
With road works delaying the traffic, the journey took longer than expected.=>And road works delayed the traffic, the journey took longer than expected.
With the explosion happening on the Friday, it was impossible to clear all the debris by the weekend.=>And the explosion happened on the Friday, it was impossible to clear all the debris by the weekend.

Thirdly what grammar term name do you call the "-ING" construction not the reduced relative clause?

Finally: although there is no "with", do you think this sentence below has the same construction?
The search for beauty spans centuries and continents. Paintings of Egyptians dating back over 4,000 years show both men and women painting their nails and wearing makeup.

(A) If the '-ings' in the above example had been reduced relative clauses, then what tense would '-ings' have implied?

(B) According to what does the '-ing' in a reduced relative clause imply the past, present, present or past continuous, etc., as it implied the past continuous in "I saw One day a 4-year-old kid saw a man lying in his own blood on the street, he called an ambulance. This is a reduced relative clause (= a man who was lying...)".


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Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2018 12:06:57 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
Firstly: but, according to what does an '-ing' imply the past, or continuous, etc., as it implied the past in "with the British leaving Aden"? The context makes it clear. Here it is obviously referring to something that happened in the past ("entered", "managed", "resumed". "1967" etc).

Secondly: if I am going to rephrase them as you rephrased the '-ing' in "with the British leaving Aden" as "a) deadly guerrilla attacks soon resumed, and (b) the British left Aden by the end of November 1967.", they'll be as follows

The tennis match was interrupted by rain, with the last set being played the following day.=> The tennis match was interrupted by rain, and the last set was played the following day. Yes.
Two of the astronauts landed on the moon, with the third remaining in orbit.=>Two of the astronauts landed on the moon, and the third remained in orbit. Yes.
With road works delaying the traffic, the journey took longer than expected.=>And Road works delayed the traffic, and [or so or and so] the journey took longer than expected.
With the explosion happening on the Friday, it was impossible to clear all the debris by the weekend.=>And The explosion happened on the Friday, and [or so or and so] it was impossible to clear all the debris by the weekend.

Thirdly what grammar term name do you call the "-ING" construction not the reduced relative clause? I don't know whether it has a specific name. I looked on various websites, but I couldn't find a name for this.

Finally: although there is no "with", do you think this sentence below has the same construction?
The search for beauty spans centuries and continents. Paintings of Egyptians dating back over 4,000 years show both men and women painting their nails and wearing makeup. These are reduced relative clauses.

(A) If the '-ings' in the above example had been reduced relative clauses (they are), then what tense would '-ings' have implied? I would use the present tense here, because the main verb ("show") is in the present tense. I would use a mixture of the present simple and present continuous:

"Paintings of Egyptians which date back over 4,000 years show both men and women who are painting their nails and [who are] wearing makeup."

(When we look at the paintings, it seems that the men and women are doing these things now, so I would use the present continuous for "paint" and "wear". "Date", however, is a simple fact, not a continuous activity, so I would use the present simple for it.)


(B) According to what does the '-ing' in a reduced relative clause imply the past, present, present or past continuous, etc., as it implied the past continuous in "I saw One day a 4-year-old kid saw a man lying in his own blood on the street, he called an ambulance. This is a reduced relative clause (= a man who was lying...)". It depends on the context, which is usually made clear by the tense of the main verb, which is past tense here ("saw").
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2018 4:59:26 PM

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Audiendus wrote:

The tennis match was interrupted by rain, with the last set being played the following day.=> The tennis match was interrupted by rain, and the last set was played the following day. Yes.


Thanks a lot,
Audiendus,
I've tried to imagine how the active passive of 'the last set was played' could be, but I couldn't find it. That is why I think a passive form cannot work here. Unless it is 'The last set' means 'last set of tennis match'. So, 'The last set of the tennis match was played by the players.' =. The players played the last set of tennis match.'.
Anyway I still confused with it.



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Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:09:18 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Unless it is 'The last set' means 'last set of tennis match'. So, 'The last set of the tennis match was played by the players.' =. The players played the last set of tennis match.'

Yes, that is correct.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, December 27, 2018 3:52:58 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
Thirdly what grammar term name do you call the "-ING" construction not the reduced relative clause? I don't know whether it has a specific name. I looked on various websites, but I couldn't find a name for this.

Finally: although there is no "with", do you think this sentence below has the same construction?
The search for beauty spans centuries and continents. Paintings of Egyptians dating back over 4,000 years show both men and women painting their nails and wearing makeup. These are reduced relative clauses.

(A) If the '-ings' in the above example had been reduced relative clauses (they are), then what tense would '-ings' have implied? I would use the present tense here, because the main verb ("show") is in the present tense. I would use a mixture of the present simple and present continuous:

"Paintings of Egyptians which date back over 4,000 years show both men and women who are painting their nails and [who are] wearing makeup."

(When we look at the paintings, it seems that the men and women are doing these things now, so I would use the present continuous for "paint" and "wear". "Date", however, is a simple fact, not a continuous activity, so I would use the present simple for it.)



Thank very much indeed for your help, Audiendus,
I don't know if these -ings constructions highlighted below are like the-ing construction in discussion. I don't see any reasons make them be '-ing'. AFAIK, we use participles in (1) reduced relative clause, (2) like the -ing construction in discussion, (3) in adjectival phrase, and (4) after some prepositions. So, would you be so kind as to tell me what they are since neither do I see them reduced relative clauses, nor do I see them adjective phrases(like "I am having a trouble downloading this file." -where 'downloading this file' is an adjective phrase modifying 'a trouble', and 'downloading' is the gerund form of the verb 'download')

I cut myself shaving this morning (I think = I cut myself [when I was shaving this morning]). - I think the key around this is the answer of this question 'How did I cut myself?'
We could spend a lot of time gazing at this view, but the second-most populous US city. - 'How could we spend a lot of time?'
In the studies, the babies spent more time looking at the attractive faces than the unattractive ones. - 'How did the babies spend more time?'
As has been said - you are trying to jump straight to the results without doing the basic work reading texts in the language you are trying to learn. - 'How am I doing the basick work?'


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Audiendus
Posted: Thursday, December 27, 2018 8:17:54 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
I cut myself shaving this morning (I think = I cut myself [when I was shaving this morning]). - I think the key around this is the answer of this question 'How did I cut myself?'
We could spend a lot of time gazing at this view, but the second-most populous US city. - 'How could we spend a lot of time?'
In the studies, the babies spent more time looking at the attractive faces than the unattractive ones. - 'How did the babies spend more time?'
As has been said - you are trying to jump straight to the results without doing the basic work reading texts in the language you are trying to learn. - 'How am I doing the basick work?'

Yes, I agree. The "ing..." phrases are therefore adverbial.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, December 27, 2018 11:08:14 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
I cut myself shaving this morning (I think = I cut myself while/when I was shaving this morning ). - I think the key around this is the answer of this question 'How did I cut myself?'
We could spend a lot of time while/when we are gazing at this view, but the second-most populous US city. - 'How could we spend a lot of time?'
In the studies, the babies spent more time while/when they were looking at the attractive faces than the unattractive ones. - 'How did the babies spend more time?'
As has been said - you are trying to jump straight to the results without doing the basic work while/when you're reading texts in the language you are trying to learn. - 'How am I doing the basick work?'

Yes, I agree. The "ing..." phrases are therefore adverbial.


Thanks to you.
But, do you think they are all adverbial phrases like this construction called adverbial phrase - "with the British leaving Aden by the end of November 1967"

Also, you think they can be rephrased as I wrote in the blue colour.

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Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 12:17:43 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
But, do you think they are all adverbial phrases like this construction called adverbial phrase - "with the British leaving Aden by the end of November 1967"

Also, you think they can be rephrased as I wrote in the blue colour.


What do you think? Look at the meaning of the sentences.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 2:16:35 AM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
But, do you think they are all adverbial phrases like this construction called adverbial phrase - "with the British leaving Aden by the end of November 1967"

Also, you think they can be rephrased as I wrote in the blue colour.


What do you think? Look at the meaning of the sentences.


Thanks to you.

1- why do you call "-ing" an adverbial phrase in "I cut myself shaving this morning." while "-ing" is called participle caulse in "I found him sitting at a table covered with papers."


2- I think even "-ing" is an adverbial phrase in "I saw the cat drinking" . (=.... While/when it was drinking).

3- However, the structure "-ing" form can mean 'cause somebody to be doing something' so, I don't think "-ING" is adverbial phrase here.
He had us laughing all through the meale.

4- I checked my grammar book for Michael swan, and I found "-ING" forms can be
First: Participle clauses, which I think are as I, myself, divided them into two groups:
Adjectival phrase:
We can offer you a job cleaning cars.
I am faced with a problem understanding these huge kinds of "- ing" construction.

Reduced relative clauses:
There's a woman crying her eyes out over there.=>(= There's a woman who is crying her eyes out over there.)
There's Neville, eating as usual.(=There's Neville, who is eating as usual.)
Who's the girl dancing with your brother. (=.... the girl who is dancing....)
Most of the people invited to the reception were old friends.(=....the people who were invited to the....)
In came the first runner, closely followed by the second. (=...the first runner, who closely was followed by the second.) .

Second: adverbial participle clauses:
Putting down my newspaper, I walked over to the window. (=After I had put down my newspaper,....)
Having failed my medical exams, I took up teaching.(= As I had failed....)
It rained for two weeks on end, completely ruining our holiday (=..
so that it completely ruined our holiday.)
Not knowing what to do, I telephoned the police. (As I hadn't known what to do,...)
Used economically , one tin will last for six weeks. (= If it is used....)
served with milk and sugar, it makes a delicious breakfast.
A car roared past with smoke pouring the exhaust.
With Peter working in Birmingham, and lucky travelling most of the week, the house seems pretty much.

Third: object + participle clause(complement) :
I found him sitting at a table covered with papers.
I cut myself shaving this morning.
I saw a small girl standing in the goldfish pound. ( I don't think this could be "....a small girl who was standing....) .
Have you ever heard a nightingale singing ? ( I don't think this could be "....a nightingale which was singing?)
Do you think you can get the radio working?
We'll soon have you walking again.
He had us laughing all through the meale.

My questions are:
1- Do you think that examples are classified into the suitable clause as based on the above?
2- Do you think the structure "-ing" form can mean 'cause somebody to be doing something' can come in the Third: object + participle clause(complement)?
3- Do you think the examples under the adverbial participle clauses above are like the construction "-ing" here which does not necessarily imply a continuous tense:
"with the British leaving Aden by the end of November 1967"
The tennis match was interrupted by rain, with the last set being played the following day.
Two of the astronauts landed on the moon, with the third remaining in orbit.
With road works delaying the traffic, the journey took longer than expected.
With the explosion happening on the Friday, it was impossible to clear all the debris by the weekend.


4- if you're are going to categorize these examples below as to the five clauses above, then which clause does each one come in?

I cut myself shaving this morning.
We could spend a lot of time gazing at this view, but the second-most populous US city.
In the studies, the babies spent more time looking at the attractive faces than the unattractive ones.
As has been said - you are trying to jump straight to the results without doing the basic work reading texts in the language you are trying to learn. -





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Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 8:51:17 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
I saw a small girl standing in the goldfish pound. ( I don't think this could be "....a small girl who was standing....) .
Have you ever heard a nightingale singing ? ( I don't think this could be "....a nightingale which was singing?)
I think these two can also be regarded as reduced relative clauses. That is an alternative way of analysing them.

A cooperator wrote:
My questions are:
1- Do you think that examples are classified into the suitable clause as based on the above? Which examples? Please give details, and suggest how you would classify them.
2- Do you think the structure "-ing" form can mean 'cause somebody to be doing something' can come in the Third: object + participle clause(complement)? Please give an example. Do you mean something like "I cut myself shaving"?
3- Do you think the examples under the adverbial participle clauses above are like the construction "-ing" here which does not necessarily imply a continuous tense:
"with the British leaving Aden by the end of November 1967" "with the British leaving Aden..." is similar to the last example in Michael Swan's second category ("With Peter working in Birmingham...").
The tennis match was interrupted by rain, with the last set being played the following day.
Two of the astronauts landed on the moon, with the third remaining in orbit.
With road works delaying the traffic, the journey took longer than expected.
With the explosion happening on the Friday, it was impossible to clear all the debris by the weekend.
All these are also similar to the last example in Michael Swan's second category.

4- if you're are going to categorize these examples below as to the five clauses above, then which clause does each one come in?

I cut myself shaving this morning. This comes in Michael Swan's third category.
We could spend a lot of time gazing at this view, but the second-most populous US city. First category.
In the studies, the babies spent more time looking at the attractive faces than the unattractive ones. First category.
As has been said - you are trying to jump straight to the results without doing the basic work reading texts in the language you are trying to learn. -First category.
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 9:09:37 AM
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A cooperator wrote:
1- why do you call "-ing" an adverbial phrase in "I cut myself shaving this morning." while "-ing" is called participle clause in "I found him sitting at a table covered with papers."
How did I cut myself? By shaving this morning.
How did I find him? By sitting at a table covered with papers.
What was he doing? Sitting at a table covered with papers.

(They are different constructions.)


2- I think even "-ing" is an adverbial phrase in "I saw the cat drinking" . (=.... While/when it was drinking). No.
How did I see the cat? By drinking.
What was the cat doing? Drinking.


3- However, the structure "-ing" form can mean 'cause somebody to be doing something' so, I don't think "-ING" is adverbial phrase here.
He had us laughing all through the meale.
That's right - it is not an adverbial phrase.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 1:12:32 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
4- if you're are going to categorize these examples below as to the five clauses above, then which clause does each one come in?

I cut myself shaving this morning. This comes in Michael Swan's third category.
We could spend a lot of time gazing at this view, but the second-most populous US city. First category.
In the studies, the babies spent more time looking at the attractive faces than the unattractive ones. First category.
As has been said - you are trying to jump straight to the results without doing the basic work reading texts in the language you are trying to learn. -First category.

Thanks a lot,
Audiendus

Firstly: according to your analysis below for "... shaving this...", it seems to come to the adverbial participle clause since it answer the question 'how did I cut myself?', and that is not the third category as you said above, however, it is the second. The third category is: object + participle clause(complement)

Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
1- why do you call "-ing" an adverbial phrase in "I cut myself shaving this morning." while "-ing" is called participle clause in "I found him sitting at a table covered with papers."
How did I cut myself? By shaving this morning.


Secondly: I think the following:
We could spend a lot of time gazing at this view, but the second-most populous US city." can comes to the adverbial participle clause sine it answers the question 'How did/could we spend a lot of time?' By gazing at....

In the studies, the babies spent more time looking at the attractive faces than the unattractive ones. How did the babies spend more time? By looking at...

As has been said - you are trying to jump straight to the results without doing the basic work reading texts in the language you are trying to learn. 'How do I do the basic work?' By reading texts...

Thirdly: but, the first category "Participle clauses" isn't divided by Michael Swan, himself, into "Adjectival phrase" and "Reduced relative clauses" But, I, myself, divided it into those two sub-categories.
So, you mean they come to the adjectival phrase, having said the following:
"We could spend a lot of time gazing at this view, but the second-most populous US city. First category.
In the studies, the babies spent more time looking at the attractive faces than the unattractive ones. First category.
As has been said - you are trying to jump straight to the results without doing the basic work reading texts in the language you are trying to learn. -First category


Finally Michael Swan only mentioned, in the "Participle" section, to the participle clauses, adverbial participle clauses, and object + participle clauses. I, myself, divided the participles into two other groups: ( I am right here with considering to look at the examples under each category: )
Adjectival phrase/gerund + object:
1- {We} | {can offer} {you} {a job} {cleaning cars} . ('cleaning cars' is an adjectival phrase modifying 'a job', 'cleaning' is in the gerund form of the verb "clean")
2- {I} | {am faced with} {a problem} {understanding these huge kinds of "- ing" construction} . ("understanding these huge kinds of "- ing" construction' is an adjectival phrase modifying 'a trouble', 'understanding' is in the the gerund form of the verb "understand")
3. I | {am having} {a hard time}{making up my mind}. ("making up my mind" is an adjectival phrase modifying 'a hard time', "making up" is in the gerund form of the verb "make".)

Reduced relative clauses:
There's a woman crying her eyes out over there.=>(= There's a woman who is crying her eyes out over there.)
There's Neville, eating as usual.(=There's Neville, who is eating as usual.)
Who's the girl dancing with your brother. (=.... the girl who is dancing....)
I saw a small girl standing in the goldfish pound. ("....a small girl who was standing....)
Have you ever heard a nightingale singing ? ("....a nightingale which was singing?)
Most of the people invited to the reception were old friends.(=....the people who were invited to the....)
In came the first runner, closely followed by the second. (=...the first runner, who closely was followed by the second.) .





Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 1:55:26 PM

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Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
I saw a small girl standing in the goldfish pound. ( I don't think this could be "....a small girl who was standing....) .
Have you ever heard a nightingale singing ? ( I don't think this could be "....a nightingale which was singing?)
I think these two can also be regarded as reduced relative clauses. That is an alternative way of analysing them.


To be analyzed as reduced relative clauses is one alternative, then, what is the other way of analysing them?


I think "I saw the cat drinking" " is a reduced relative clause (='... the cat which was drinking.')

Michael Swan listed those two sentences above, you said they can be analyzed as reduced relative clauses, to "object + participle". Also, he listed this "Do you think you can get the radio working" under the "object + participle"

So do you think "Do you think you can get the radio worming " can be analyzed as reduced relative clause as long as it is listed in the same category the two sentences above are listed in.



Which category do these come in?
I saw the cat drinking.
I found her drinking my whisky.
I found him sitting at a table covered with papers.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 7:08:07 PM

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This is part of Michael Swan's book.






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Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 9:34:18 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Firstly: according to your analysis below for "... shaving this...", it seems to come to the adverbial participle clause since it answer the question 'how did I cut myself?', and that is not the third category as you said above, however, it is the second. The third category is: object + participle clause(complement)

So why is "I cut myself shaving this morning" listed in the third category in your previous post? I thought you meant that Michael Swan himself listed it in that category. That is why I was confused.
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:20:34 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
I saw a small girl standing in the goldfish pound. ( I don't think this could be "....a small girl who was standing....) .
Have you ever heard a nightingale singing ? ( I don't think this could be "....a nightingale which was singing?)
I think these two can also be regarded as reduced relative clauses. That is an alternative way of analysing them.

To be analyzed as reduced relative clauses is one alternative, then, what is the other way of analysing them?

As "object + participle".

A cooperator wrote:
I think "I saw the cat drinking" " is a reduced relative clause (='... the cat which was drinking.')

Michael Swan listed those two sentences above, you said they can be analyzed as reduced relative clauses, to "object + participle". Also, he listed this "Do you think you can get the radio working" under the "object + participle"

So do you think "Do you think you can get the radio working " can be analyzed as reduced relative clause as long as it is listed in the same category the two sentences above are listed in.

No. "Do you think you can get the radio, which is working?" would not give the right meaning.

A cooperator wrote:
Which category do these come in?
I saw the cat drinking.
I found her drinking my whisky.
I found him sitting at a table covered with papers.

Object + participle, or alternatively reduced relative clause.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 10:26:59 PM

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Hello.

The present participle (the '-ing' form) is used in three main ways:
1. as an adjective (or as part of a longer participle-phrase which acts as an adjective)
2. as part of a verb-form (along with an auxiliary verb, often some form of 'be')
3. as a noun (in which case it's usually called a gerund, rather than 'participle)
there are other uses - such as the 'object complement' use you mentioned.

Sometimes, a clause containing the 'which is/was xxx-ing' form (number '2' above) is 'reduced' by removing the pronoun and the verb "be".
This is one test you can use to see if 'reduced clause' is possible. Can you make a sensible sentence by adding 'who is/was' or 'which is/was' to the participle?

Sometimes the 'participle as an adjective' has a similar meaning to the reduced clause. They may have a slightly different stress or implication.

"I heard a nightingale singing" could be used as a reduced clause - "I heard a nightingale which was singing." which has most attention on the nightingale and a little on the fact that it was singing.
"I heard a nightingale singing" could be used as a noun+participle - which has a bit more attention on the singing, and secondary attention on the fact it was a nightingale.

"Do you think you can get the radio working?" does not make sense as a reduced relative clause in normal circumstances. It's not grammar, but simply logic.
You want the radio's state changed from "not working" to "working".
"Do you think you can get the radio which is working?" does not say that, or anything like it.

I found her drinking my whisky cannot be a reduced clause. "I found her who was drinking my whisky" is not a meaningful sentence. "Drinking my whiskey" must be a participle phrase.

I found him sitting at a table covered with papers cannot be a reduced clause. "I found him who was sitting at a table covered with papers".

Take a look at this lesson. Do the test at the end and then restudy the lesson as needed.
That is just the very basic data - you will find more in other grammar courses. Dictionaries do not give all the data.
Grammar books tell you which forms CAN be used, but only a full course will help you to know HOW the forms are used.
As things are, you will still need to ask for each sentence: "Is this an adjectival participle, or a reduced clause?" in a year's time.




Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, December 28, 2018 11:37:02 PM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I found her drinking my whisky cannot be a reduced clause. "I found her who was drinking my whisky" is not a meaningful sentence. "Drinking my whiskey" must be a participle phrase.

I found him sitting at a table covered with papers cannot be a reduced clause. "I found him who was sitting at a table covered with papers".

I was going to say something similar myself, but I had second thoughts, as the sentences in red are in fact grammatical (compare "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"). So I suggested "reduced relative clause" as an alternative analysis to "object + participle".

In some (but not all) cases, there is very little practical difference between the two analyses. But I agree with your point about whether the most attention is on the noun or the verb.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 12:47:14 AM

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Yes - I did recognise the Biblical form. :-)
The sentences ARE 'grammatical' - they do not violate any of the Rules, except "Normal grammatical English is in a form which is used by normal English-speakers - do not try to twist sentences into unusual forms."
This comes from the meaning of Grammar as "the study of how people use words and connect them into meaningful phrases and sentences".
The English of the King James Bible is not grammatical in current English (except in some well-known phrases).

If I heard these sentences, I would be able to figure out a meaning - but it would not be the same as the original.

"I found her who was drinking my whisky" means (to me) that the speaker was looking for the person who was drinking their whiskey, and found a woman.
"I found her drinking my whisky" means the speaker was looking for a specific woman and, when found, she was drinking the whiskey.
Very different meanings.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 6:13:27 AM

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Audiendus wrote:

A cooperator wrote:
Which category do these come in?
I saw the cat drinking.
I found her drinking my whisky.
I found him sitting at a table covered with papers.
Object + participle, or alternatively reduced relative clause.


Participle construction is only here analyzed as 'object + participle' or alternatively "reduced relative clause". But, this isn't the parsing of the participles. So, you think we can parse the followings below as follows:
"the cat" is a noun phrase acting as the object of the main verb "saw", and "drinking" is in the gerund form of the verb 'drink', and "drinking" is (gerund /participle phrase) acting as the object complement of "the cat" .
"her" a objective pronoun acting as the object of the main verb "found", "drinking" in the gerund form of the verb 'drink', and "drinikg my whisky" is a gerund /participle phrase acting as the object complement of "her".
"him" is an objective pronoun acting as the object of the main verb "found", "sitting" is in the gerund form of the verb 'sit', and "sitting at a table covered with books" is a gerund/ participle phrase acting as an object complement.

So, the object complement can be "adjective" as in "I saw you awake early, this morning", and a participle/gerund phrase as in the above sentences.
Do you think there are other constructions among which is an object complement?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 6:13:51 AM

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Repeated.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 6:15:01 AM

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Repeated.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 8:42:52 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hello.
The present participle (the '-ing' form) is used in three main ways:
1. as an adjective (or as part of a longer participle-phrase which acts as an adjective)
2. as part of a verb-form (along with an auxiliary verb, often some form of 'be')
3. as a noun (in which case it's usually called a gerund, rather than 'participle)
there are other uses - such as the 'object complement' use you mentioned.

Sometimes, a clause containing the 'which is/was xxx-ing' form (number '2' above) is 'reduced' by removing the pronoun and the

I found her drinking my whisky cannot be a reduced clause. "I found her who was drinking my whisky" is not a meaningful sentence. "Drinking my whiskey" must be a participle phrase.

I found him sitting at a table covered with papers cannot be a reduced clause. "I found him who was sitting at a table covered with papers".


Drag0nspeaker

Firstly based on the above, how can I distinguish if a participle is used as an object complement or as an adjective (or as part of a longer participle-phrase which acts as an adjective)?

Secondly you said the present participle is used in three main ways:
1. as an adjective (or as part of a longer participle-phrase which acts as an adjective). All these are examples for it:

1- I found her drinking my whisky.("Drinking my whiskey" is a participle phrase cting as an adjective modifying "her". )
2- I found him sitting at a table covered with papers. ("sitting at a table covered with books" is participle-phrase acting as an adjective modifying "him".
3- {We} | {can offer} {you} {a job} {cleaning cars} . ('cleaning cars' is an adjectival phrase modifying 'a job', 'cleaning' is in the gerund form of the verb "clean")
4- {I} | {am faced with} {a problem} {understanding these huge kinds of "- ing" construction} . ("understanding these huge kinds of "- ing" construction' is an adjectival phrase modifying 'a trouble', 'understanding' is in the the gerund form of the verb "understand")
5- I | {am having} {a hard time}{making up my mind}. ("making up my mind" is an adjectival phrase modifying 'a hard time', "making up" is in the gerund form of the verb "make".)

If I was right, I'd think these below cannot be also analyzed as reduced relative clauses. So, do you think the highlighted can be adjectival phrases(participle phrases), and the marked with blue color are the gerund forms.
I cut myself shaving this morning .
Do you think you can get the radio working this morning?
We could spend a lot of time  gazing at this view, but the second-most populous US city. 
In the studies, the babies spent more time  looking  the attractive faces than the unattractive ones. .
As has been said - you are trying to jump straight to the results without doing the basic work  reading  texts in the language you are trying to learn.



Finally: if the five ones highlighted above were adverbial participle phrases, then how could I distinguish an adverbial phrase from an adjectival phrase?






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Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, December 29, 2018 9:22:20 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Which category do these come in?
I saw the cat drinking.
I found her drinking my whisky.
I found him sitting at a table covered with papers.

Object + participle, or alternatively reduced relative clause.

Participle construction is only here analyzed as 'object + participle' or alternatively "reduced relative clause". But, this isn't the parsing of the participles. So, you think we can parse the followings below as follows:
"the cat" is a noun phrase acting as the object of the main verb "saw", and "drinking" is in the gerund participle form of the verb 'drink', and "drinking" is (gerund /participle phrase) acting as the object complement of "the cat" .
"her" a objective pronoun acting as the object of the main verb "found", "drinking" in the gerund participle form of the verb 'drink', and "drinikg my whisky" is a gerund /participle phrase acting as the object complement of "her".
"him" is an objective pronoun acting as the object of the main verb "found", "sitting" is in the gerund participle form of the verb 'sit', and "sitting at a table covered with books" is a gerund/ participle phrase acting as an object complement.
The '-ing' words above cannot be gerunds - they do not function as nouns. Sometimes, however, '-ing' words can be gerunds (functioning as nouns), e.g:

There is a problem loading the data [the problem is the loading of the data]
I have difficulty recognizing faces [the difficulty is the recognizing of the faces]
He obtained a job cleaning the streets [the job was the cleaning of the streets]

You can see that this analysis does not work with your examples above. For example, "I found her who was the drinking of my whisky" would not make sense.


So, the object complement can be "adjective" as in "I saw you awake early, this morning", and a participle/gerund phrase as in the above sentences. Yes. Or a gerund phrase as in my examples.
Do you think there are other constructions among which is an object complement? An object complement can be a noun (see my comment in another recent thread).
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 12:39:12 PM

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Could you please address those three points asked to Drag0nzpeaker?


Also, I think Drag0nzpeaker?
forgot the participle can be used after after prepositions and conjunctions. E.g,
The conservative US writer and commentator Bre Payton has died at the age of 26 after falling ill. (=..... After she was falling ill. )

Or the above participle underlined comes in "as part of a verb-form (along with an auxiliary verb, often some form of 'be')" as Drag0nzpeaker? said.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 7:38:39 PM

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1- Could you please address those three points asked to Drag0nzpeaker, on Saturday, December 29, 2018 4:42:52 PM?



2- You said below 'after falling ill' is a prepositional gerund phrase(adjectival phrase)(That is, 'falling' acts as a noun), and NOT a prepositional participle phrase. How could you distinguish that? I.e. why you didn't say 'participle phrase'
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Verbs followed by adjectives, and then used with the meaning as ordinary link verbs:
Sometimes some verbs (sit, stand, lie, fall) can be followed by adjectives. This happen when are really describing the subject of the sentence, and not the action of the verb.

'fall ill, sick, victim, prey to' to get a very serious illness or to be attacked or deceived by someone.
The conservative US writer and commentator Bre Payton has died at the age of 26 after falling ill. (=..... After she was falling ill. )

Yes that is correct - except that "falling" here is a gerund, not an abbreviation of the continuous tense "she was falling". (A continuous tense is not appropriate here.)




3- Also, I think Drag0nzpeaker
forgot the participle can be used after after prepositions and conjunctions. E.g,
The conservative US writer and commentator Bre Payton has died at the age of 26 after falling ill. (=..... After she was falling ill. )

Or the above participle underlined comes in "as part of a verb-form (along with an auxiliary verb, often some form of 'be')" as Drag0nzpeaker? said.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Audiendus
Posted: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 10:23:12 PM
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I am sorry, but I have nothing further to add in this thread. I cannot spend any more time on it.
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