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For Hope123 (and anyone interested) - Some unusual history Options
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:40:57 PM

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Joined: 9/12/2011
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi!
As you said you were becoming interested in history . . . (in the OG thread)

This is a bit of the history of one town - a very pretty town in places - Berwick-upon-Tweed.
It's pronounced "Berrick".

Between the Norman Conquest (1066) and 1482, Berwick-upon-Tweed was English about eight times and Scottish about seven times (I say 'about' because some of the changes were never accepted by the town itself).
In 1482, the town was taken for the last time, by Richard III of England - but did not become English.

Between 1482 and 1746, the town was, legally, neither in Scotland nor in England.

Even in the mid-nineteenth century, some documents named the monarch as "Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland, Berwick-upon-Tweed and all British Dominions Overseas".

Since 1482, Berwick town was "of England but not in England" - it was a 'self-governing borough'. Berwick County Borough, when it existed, was in England.
However, the county of Berwickshire is in Scotland. Everything north of the river (the Tweed) is in Scotland - except the town of Berwick, an area of about five square miles (my approximation from the map).

Berwick Rangers (soccer team) and Berwick RFC (Rugby team) are in the respective Scottish leagues, not English leagues.

One survey done about twenty years ago illustrates the dichotomy of ideas - and also illustrates the sensitivity of the British to accent and dialect.
The survey in the next town north of Berwick (less than ten miles away, in Scotland) showed the majority opinion to be that the people of Berwick speak with an English accent. The same survey done thirty miles south showed that the opinion was that Berwick people speak Scots English.

There was a story which was reported in The Guardian (British newspaper), the Washington Post and the Christian Science Monitor (all very respectable newspapers) that the Crimea War did not officially end until 1966, as the Declaration of War was signed "Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland, Berwick-upon-Tweed and all British Dominions Overseas" - but the peace treaty was signed "Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland, and all British Dominions Overseas". This left Berwick still at war with Russia.

Apparently, in 1966, the London correspondent of Pravda visited the Mayor of Berwick and the two made a mutual declaration of peace. The Mayor said "Please tell the Russian people through your newspaper that they can sleep peacefully in their beds."

Sadly, the first part of the story is not true - neither the Declaration of War nor the Treaty of Paris mentioned Berwick specifically - though the visit and the 'declaration of peace' were true.

An appendix to this is the only survivor of this "extended war" from 1853 to 1966. She was on HMS Queen, at the battle of Sevastopol and didn't die till 2004, aged 160.
She was Timothy, the ships mascot, a tortoise.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
progpen
Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:41:52 AM

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Location: Haddington, Scotland, United Kingdom
We have been there a few times. Beautiful town (village). Fascinating history.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 6:14:06 AM

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Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
Interesting, Drag0. Made me read more.

Do they brew good beer in this barley farm?


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 9:45:12 AM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Very interesting, Drago! 👍 More?

Looking for a map as location seems important to the story, I searched for only Berwick. I had never heard of that name before. However, I needed to use the whole name (on the Tweed River), because apparently there are Berwicks in Nova Scotia, Canada, in Australia, and in Pennsylvania. I would have pronounced the w without your info, Drago.

I wanted to post a map of the UK with Berwick-Upon-Tweed's location, but any I found won't let me copy. Strangely enough Whistle it is on the border between the two! 😀

A quaint little town and story!


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
thar
Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:25:42 PM

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-wick is an extremely common place name because in various forms it means everything from village, dwelling, to market, to harbour. So everything from Gatwick (goat farm) to Chiswick (cheese market - dairy cows in meadows along the Thames), Berwick (barley farm), to Warwick (settlement by the wier) to Prestwick (priest farm). Lerwick - (clay inlet). In several places you also have villages called Wickwick - settlement outside a village.
Also -wich - Norwich - north market town. Sandwich - sandy place.
In Dutch Wijk aan Zee - wick-on-sea
then going north you have -vik in Norse - Narvik - ship inlet. Reykjavík - smoking bay. Eoforwīċ/(Yorvik) > York.

The w is normally silent - lerrick, berrick, chizzick, worrick

But it can be pronounced, - Gatwick was not a village name - Gatwick was the landowner from way back in 1241. Maybe they call the airport Gat-wick so travellers who don't know about the silent w can pronounce it! Whistle



Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:45:29 PM

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Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
thar wrote:
-wick is an extremely common place name because in various forms it means everything from village, dwelling, to market, to harbour. So everything from Gatwick (goat farm) to Chiswick (cheese market - dairy cows in meadows along the Thames), Berwick (barley farm), to Warwick (settlement by the wier) to Prestwick (priest farm). Lerwick - (clay inlet). In several places you also have villages called Wickwick - settlement outside a village.
Also -wich - Norwich - north market town. Sandwich - sandy place.
In Dutch Wijk aan Zee - wick-on-sea
then going north you have -vik in Norse - Narvik - ship inlet. Reykjavík - smoking bay. Eoforwīċ/(Yorvik) > York.

The w is normally silent - lerrick, berrick, chizzick, worrick

But it can be pronounced, - Gatwick was not a village name - Gatwick was the landowner from way back in 1241. Maybe they call the airport Gat-wick so travellers who don't know about the silent w can pronounce it! Whistle



Strange that I knew to pronounce Warwick correctly but never thought to generalize. Probably because there was some Earl or Duke of Warwick in history that I remembered.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
thar
Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 2:33:06 PM

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Yes, the Earl Of Warwick - Warwick the Kingmaker. The title says it all!

I know of at least one American actor with the name 'Warrick' - or maybe 'Worrick' - as well as the standard Warwick. One of many examples of strange pronunciation being standardised by emigration to America.

Well, for additional bizarre history you can have the Duke of Berwick.

Quote:
Duke of Berwick (/ˈbɛrɪk/) (Spanish: Duque de Berwick) is an Anglo-Spanish title that was created in the Peerage of England on 19 March 1687 for James FitzJames, the illegitimate son of King James II and Arabella Churchill. The title's name refers to the town of Berwick-upon-Tweed in England, near the border with Scotland. The titles of Baron Bosworth and Earl of Tinmouth were created at the same time, and they are subsidiary to the dukedom.


You know that thread about King James being chased out of England for being too Catholic..... too friendly with the enemies of England in France and Spain? He made his illegitimate son the Duke of Berwick. Then when he was deposed his son forfeited the title of Duke of Berwick but it was still recognised in Catholic France (where he went into exile) and Spain (who still hoped to place a Catholic on the English throne).

Quote:
Nevertheless, the titles were recognized in France as de facto Jacobite peerages by King Louis XIV, to please the exiled King James II & VII, along with other Jacobite peerages recognized in France, like Duke of Perth, Duke of Melfort, etc. On 13 December 1707, King Philip V confirmed or issued the title in Spain, and he conferred the dignity of Grandee of Spain on James FitzJames, 1st Duke of Berwick. The grandeeship is attached to the Spanish title of Duke of Berwick.


So now the Duke of Berwick is a Spanish title, as well as an English one.

Because of the different succession laws in the two countries, they are held by two different people.
You can see by the names - Fitz (illegitimate) James Stuart is ancestral to both of them.
But you can also see they are now completely Spanish!

Quote:
Creation date 1687
Monarch James II

Peerage of England
Peerage of Spain
First holder James FitzJames

Present holder Jacobo Hernando Fitz-James Stuart y Gómez (English peerage)
Carlos Fitz-James Stuart y Martínez de Irujo (Spanish peerage)

Remainder to the 1st Duke's heirs male of the body lawfully begotten (English peerage)
the 18th Duke's heirs, both male or female (Spanish peerage)
Subsidiary titles
Baron Bosworth
Earl Tinmouth
Seat(s) Liria Palace


The ducal seat, the Liria Palace/ Palacio de Lirio, is in Madrid.


Weird or what! Whistle






Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 9:19:30 PM

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Weird or what! Whistle

Very!

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 10:30:33 PM

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Joined: 9/12/2011
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi again.
You're right - most maps on the internet are either useless for seeing really where it is, or will not hotlink properly.



This map shows where in Great Britain the town is - but doesn't show the border (also the yellow dot covers the shape of the river which is an important point.

This map and the aerial view show the detail.

The border follows the river, almost to the sea - the river is pretty good natural boundary - but the border loops around north side of the town, wereas the river loops to the south.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Thursday, October 18, 2018 4:16:00 AM

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Location: Luton, England, United Kingdom
The course of rivers do meander over time, I wonder if there was a time when the Tweed was to the north of Berwick?


I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, October 19, 2018 6:24:14 AM

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Joined: 9/21/2009
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Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
Another interesting place is Märket, an island shared by both Finland and Sweden. It's the smallest sea island shared by two countries.

There is a lighthouse on the Finnish side of the current border, which has been unmanned and automated since 1979. When it was built by the Russians and Finns in 1885, the island was considered a no man's land, so it was simply built on the highest point on the island. However, this meant it was built on the Swedish part of the island.

As a result, the border was adjusted in 1985 so that the lighthouse is now located on Finnish territory. The adjustment was carried out such that no net transfer of territory occurred, and the ownership of the coastline was unchanged so as not to interfere with each country's fishing rights.

This resulted in an unusual shape for the international border which satisfied both Finnish and Swedish interests. The adjusted border takes the form of an inverted 'S', and the lighthouse is connected to the rest of Finland only by a short stretch of land. The border is regularly resurveyed every 25 years by officials representing both countries. The last such joint inspection took place in August 2006.
(TFD)






In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, October 19, 2018 8:58:03 AM

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Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Thanks, JJ. Interesting border. Hope they don't have to do what some Americans and Canadians do.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/06/01/quebec-vermont-towns-straddling-border-chafe-under-heightened-security.html

What Boisvert means is that every time he or his wife cross the street or drive off on an errand, they have to report in at the U.S. or Canadian border posts. It’s the same for all 23 families on the street.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
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