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General Secretary, Secretary General(Secretary-General), Executive Secretary (Post, Job Titles) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, October 8, 2018 10:05:48 AM

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Hi Everyone!

While so confused with the difference between the General Secretary and the Secretary General, I googled and I found out the first answer below which helped eliminate that ambiguity.
Well it is as simple as the difference between a Plant and seed. There is usually no President where there is Secretary General. He/she is the organization's head. But where there is General Secretary, there is usually a President that heads the organization.

However, then I get more confused when I saw this discussion somewhere'

Quote:
OP: I have heard some within the ANC in saying Secretary General referring to their branch Secretaries. I am pressed to contribute on this this discourse.
Mine is to share information and learn at the same time.

General Secretary

The person in charge of an organization, for example, a political party.

This means that it is in the Communist Party where you have the General Secretary because the Secretary, at all levels of the Party, is the Political head. The Secretary is in charge of the organization.

The General Secretary is the National leader of the Party as he/she is the overall Political Head of the Party. At lower levels we have the Provincial Secretary who is the Political Head of the Party at provincial level, the District Secretary who is the Political Head of the Party at District level, the Sub – District Secretary who is the Political Head of the Party at Sub – District level and the Branch Secretary who is the Political Head at branch level.


Secretary General
Means the person who is the chief administrator of the organization.
The Secretary General is the administrative officer in an organization where the President/ the Chairperson is the one in charge of an organization.

In our South African context, it is in organizations such as the ANC, SANCO and others, where you have the President/ the Chairperson as the Political Head of the organization, that you have the Secretary General.
There are also those who refer to Secretaries at lower levels of the movement, the ANC, as General Secretaries. This confusion has to be clarified. An organization has one Secretary General at National level.
At lower levels we have the Provincial Secretary who is the administrative office at Provincial level, the Regional Secretary who is the administrative officer at Regional level, the Sub – Regional Secretary who is the administrative officer at Sub – regional level and the branch Secretary who is the administrative officer at branch level."


First Answer: Secretary General should be regarded as equivalent to the CEO organisation whilst the General Secretary should regarded as an Administrator. Secretary General in various organisation is the highest or officer whilst General secretary idoes lots of functions. They are not synonymous. Gwede is the CEO of the ANC and Vavi is doing Administrative duties for Cosatu.

Second Answer: The difference below is true and specific to the use of the terms Secretary General and General Secretary in the ANC and the Communist Party, but is by no means universal. I use the name the Communist Party and not SACP because the definition given below for the position of General Secretary is largely standard as it is captured for Communist Parties across the world.

However, in unions such as COSATU (federation) and almost all its affiliates they also use the position General Secretary and there are Presidents who are the leaders of the union. Therefore the definition provided below doesn't obtain for them.

Just to also highlight something. Instead of looking for definitions we should also recognise our role in developing them. In this regard I would like to point to the role played by history.

The use of the term "General" in the ANC has a certain historical background corresponding to organisational development. The ANC used to consist of ANCs - e.g. of so and so geography. Then the term "General" as in President General (not General President), therefore Secretary General, Treasurer General will refer to the leaders of the highest leadership collective from which the regional ANCs (e.g. Transvaal ANC or ANC of "geographic name") derive overall direction.


Third Answer: I agree with you that the difference lies in how each organisation defines the responsibilities, powers and functions. There is no fundamental difference derived from reference to either “general secretary” or “secretary general”. It will be disastrous if leaders organisations irrespective of portfolio occupied were to be ignorant of the administration of an organisation.


Fourth Answer: once again the General Secretary in the Party cannot be compared to the Secretary General of many organization more so with the Party.

The General Secretary of the Party is the Political and Administrative Head of the Party and is far from the references that many seem to suggest and therefore it can't be compared to the level of the ANC SG for that matter.

I therefore agree with the definitions provided by Cde Alex. I would appreciate it if comrades can read and understand the contributions each of us make in the CU let me quote what I said and still recommend that the Cdes re-read what I said " This clarity is a bit problematic as it seeks to suggest that the Party General Secretary is an administrator, which will be highly incorrect. Therefore this definition or clarity is exclusive of the Party structure/s."

I hope that the Cdes can see that in no way did I suggest that the Party GS is the "Administrator" however the political administrative role of the Party is a key responsibility of the Party GS and can never be compared to the conventional administrative responsibilities of Secretary Generals of other parties precisely because the Party and the ANC are not the same and the comparison between the two is limiting.

I say so because the position of the Secretary General of the ANC cannot be compared to the other similar positions in other organizations for which their character are far from that of the ANC.

I therefore agree that looking for a definition which consumers of such may interpret as related to positions in our revolutionary structures has a potential to incorrectly explain these important positions. Like one comrade said the answer is embedded on the role and responsibilities of the positions concerned as well as the character of such organizations






My questions are as follows:
Firstly: I don't know if there is a difference in 'Secretary General' and while hyphenated 'Secretary-General'
I sometimes see 'Secretary-General' is hyphenated as in:
Mr Hassan Nasrallah
Secretary-General of Hezbollah


Secondly: Having read "There is usually no President where there is Secretary General. He/she is the organization's head. But where there is General Secretary, there is usually a President that heads the organization", my understanding is as follows:

The General Secretary is the person in charge of an organization, for example, a political party. He is the National leader of the Party as he/she is the overall Political Head of the Party.

In organizations/parties at National Levels, we only have General Secretary, but no a Secretary General)
General Secretary is the National leader, chief administrator, the Head/ President/Chief Executive Officer. However, there are other Secretaries at lower levels, at Provincial Level is called a Provincial Secretary, who is a Political Head of a Party at provincial level, at District level is called a District Secretary, who is a Political Head of the Party at District level, at the Sub-District level is called a Sub – District Secretary, who is a Political Head of the Party at Sub-District level and at the Branch Level is called a Branch Secretary, who is a Political Head at branch level.

On the other hand, in organizations/parties at International or Continental Levels, we can have 'Secretary General', but NO 'General Secretary'

The Secretary General is the administrative officer in an organization where the President/ the Chairperson is the one in charge of an organization.
In organizations, where you have the President/ the Chairperson as the Political Head of the organization, that you have the Secretary General. There are also those who refer to Secretaries at lower levels of the movement, as General Secretaries. So, at the Regional Level, we can have a Regional Secretary who is a administrative officer at Regional level, at the Provincial Level, we can have a Provincial Secretary, who is a administrative office at Provincial level, at the District Levels, we have a District Secretary, who is a administrative officer at Discret Level, at the Sub-Discret Level, we have a Sub-Discret Secretary who is a administrative officer at Sub–District level and, at the Branch Level, we have a Branch Secretary who is a administrative officer at branch level.


Thirdly: The usage of where 'General' is placed ONLY in case 'Secretary' and ONLY in some professions. So, 'Secretary-General' should be regarded as equivalent to the CEO of an organisation whilst the General Secretary should be regarded as an Administrator(one doing duties).
Eg., Gwede is the CEO of the ANC and Vavi is doing Administrative duties for Cosatu.

OR this conception of adding 'General' before/after any post/job titles and in any professions can be as a right datum, for instance,

1- A Partitioner General one who is the chief administrator, the Head or CEO for all General Practitioners, at Regional, Provincial, District, Sub-District, and Branch levels whilst a General Practitioner is one who is the administrative officer managing types of illness that present in an undifferentiated way at an early stage of development, which may require urgent intervention.
Treasurer General

2- A Treasurer General is one who is the the chief administrator, Head or CEO for General Treasurers at Regional, Provincial, District, Sub-District, and Branch levels whilst A General Treasurer is one who is the administrative officer appointed to administer or manage the financial assets and liabilities of a society, company, local authority, or other body.

3- A President General is one who is the chief administrator, the head or CEO for General Presidents at Regional, Provincial, District, Sub-District, and Branch levels whilst General President is one who is the administrative officer.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Wilmar (USA)
Posted: Monday, October 8, 2018 1:54:14 PM

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It's as simple as positions have titles -- find out what they are. Every org has the privilege of naming their positions any way they want to.
A cooperator
Posted: Monday, October 8, 2018 4:19:50 PM

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Wilmar (USA) wrote:
It's as simple as positions have titles -- find out what they are. Every org has the privilege of naming their positions any way they want to.

Thanks a lot,
But, do you think 'Secretary General' and 'Secretary-General' are the same?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, October 8, 2018 11:14:34 PM

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In some companies or organisations, they may call a post "Secretary General".
In other organisations, they may call the same post - or a different one - "Secretary-General".
In some other companies, they may call one (or several) of their officers "General Secretary".

general
- adjective
8. (prenominal or immediately postpositive) having superior or extended authority or rank: general manager; consul general.
Collins Dictionary

7. Highest or superior in rank: the general manager. American Heritage

8. having extended command or superior or chief rank: the secretary general of the U.N. Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary

It does not matter whether the 'general' is prenomial (before the noun 'manager') or immediately postpositive (directly after the noun). Different organisations choose their own post names.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 2:05:04 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

It does not matter whether the 'general' is prenomial (before the noun 'manager') or immediately postpositive (directly after the noun). Different organisations choose their own post names.


Thank you so much,
But I don't know why I see people write
Mr Hassan Nasrallah
Secretary-General of Hezbollah


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, October 11, 2018 4:05:42 AM

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I assume it is because that is the title which the writer decided upon.
Others use "Secretary General of Hezbollah" and maybe some would say "The Hezbollah Secretary-General".

There are conventions covering the use of hyphens, but some people follow one convention and other people follow other conventions.

So long as you understand "Secretary-General of Hezbollah" and "Secretary General of Hezbollah" to mean "the main person who leads Hezbollah", don't worry about the hyphen, it's not important.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2018 4:54:51 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
In some companies or organisations, they may call a post "Secretary General".
In other organisations, they may call the same post - or a different one - "Secretary-General".
In some other companies, they may call one (or several) of their officers "General Secretary".
It does not matter whether the 'general' is prenomial (before the noun 'manager') or immediately postpositive (directly after the noun). Different organisations choose their own post names.


Drag0nspeaker,


Firstly: based on the above, each pair below can be meant the same thing(That is, they can used to title a person holding a same position.)(I didn't consider hyphen):
general secretary <=> secretary general
general manager <=> manager general
general consul <=> consul general
general attorney <=> attorney general
general solicitor <=> solicitor general
general treasurer <=>treasurer general
general president <=> president general
general practitioner <=> practitioner general



Secondly: you don't think that the above post titles should be capitalized, you do?

Thirdly: does 'secretary' mean 'minister'?
For instance,
1- the Foreign Secretary has acknowledged that 350,000 people could be forced from their homes into the desert beyond, where there is neither water nor food.
1- former U.S. Defense Secretary.
3- asked by host Chris Wallace whether Trump listens primarily to hardliners like trad director peter Navarro - who has characterized China as the economic "parasite of the world" - or moderates like chief economic adviser Larry Kudlow and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, Tiankai responded simply, "You tell me."

If yes, it can mean 'minister', then if 'general secretary' can mean 'general minister'?


Finally: what does 'Secretary-General' mean in 'The Special Envoy of the Secretary-General(SESG) for Yemen is leading the UN's efforts to build consensus towards a political agreement in order to end the fighting in the country.'? Also, if it had been written as 'The Special Envoy of the General Secretary', then it would have been the same?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2018 7:28:39 PM

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Just make it simple.

Whoever is in lead of some gang, use the title Head Honcho.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, December 1, 2018 7:42:21 AM

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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
Just make it simple.

Whoever is in lead of some gang, use the title Head Honcho.

Thanks a lot, Jyrkka,
But, while reading somewhere, I see that writers care when to write 'a General Attorney', 'a General Solicitor', or 'General Governor' and when to write 'an Attorney General', 'a Solicitor General', or 'Governor-General' as in these two sentences below:

Since then I have described the Queen as our monarch or sovereign, and the governor-general as our head of state.

In the UK there is an Attorney General for England and Wales, and also a Solicitor General. They are both MPs (Members of Parliament) and former lawyers.

As a result, I am respectfully requesting anyone to take some of their precious time out to address these points of mine below:
Firstly: each pair below can be meant the same thing(That is, they can used to title a person holding a same position.)(I didn't consider hyphen):
general secretary <=> secretary general
general manager <=> manager general
general consul <=> consul general
general attorney <=> attorney general
general solicitor <=> solicitor general
general treasurer <=>treasurer general
general president <=> president general
general governor <=> governor general
general practitioner <=> practitioner general



Secondly: you don't think that the above post titles should be capitalized, you do?

Thirdly: does 'secretary' mean 'minister'?
For instance,
1- the Foreign Secretary has acknowledged that 350,000 people could be forced from their homes into the desert beyond, where there is neither water nor food.
1- former U.S. Defense Secretary.
3- asked by host Chris Wallace whether Trump listens primarily to hardliners like trad director peter Navarro - who has characterized China as the economic "parasite of the world" - or moderates like chief economic adviser Larry Kudlow and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, Tiankai responded simply, "You tell me."

If yes, it can mean 'minister', then if 'general secretary' can mean 'general minister'?


Finally: what does 'Secretary-General' mean in 'The Special Envoy of the Secretary-General(SESG) for Yemen is leading the UN's efforts to build consensus towards a political agreement in order to end the fighting in the country.'? Also, if it had been written as 'The Special Envoy of the General Secretary', then it would have been the same?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Sunday, December 2, 2018 3:38:11 AM

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There are no "Yes/No" answers for your questions.

As we have said, many times, it depends on how you are using the phrases.

Quote:
Firstly: each pair below can be meant the same thing(That is, they can used to title a person holding a same position.)(I didn't consider hyphen):
general secretary <=> secretary general
general manager <=> manager general
general consul <=> consul general
general attorney <=> attorney general
general solicitor <=> solicitor general
general treasurer <=>treasurer general
general president <=> president general
general governor <=> governor general
general practitioner <=> practitioner general

They COULD be used to describe the same jobs in different companies or governments.
However, each company or government has a definite title which they use.
You cannot use the alternative for the same person.
There is a Secretary General of the United Nations. You cannot call him/her The General Secretary.
There is a General Secretary of the Labour Party of England. You cannot call him/her The Secretary General. The title in the Labour party is "General Secretary" - that is their decision.

If you are referring to the person holding the post, you would use capital letters. If you are writing in generalised terms, you might or might not - depending on which style you choose to use (or which style is mandated by your company or university).
António Guterres is the Secretary General of the UN.
The secretary general can not over-rule a decision made by the other secretaries.


*****************
There are post titles which are defined within the single organisation or government.
In the UK, these are the executives of the Ministry of Defence.

The Rt Hon Gavin Williamson CBE MP - Secretary of State for Defence
The Rt Hon Earl Howe - Minister of State for Defence
The Rt Hon Mark Lancaster TD MP - Minister of State for the Armed Forces
The Rt Hon Tobias Ellwood MP - Parliamentary Under Secretary of State and Minister for Defence People and Veterans
Stuart Andrew MP - Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Minister for Defence Procurement


Some newspapers (wrongly) call the Secretary of State for Defence "The Defence Minister" or "Minister of Defence".
There has not been a Minister of Defence for fifty years. There has never been a Defence Minister.
'The job' of the Minister of Defence (up till 1964) was almost the same as 'the job' of the Secretary of State for Defence now.

************
Quote:
does 'secretary' mean 'minister'?
. . . If yes, it can mean 'minister', then if 'general secretary' can mean 'general minister'?

You cannot replace any one title with another title.
Each organisation and each government has its own executives and titles. You cannot (properly) use different ones.
You need to know the organisation you are referring to - and the titles which that organisation uses.

Some people who are not involved in a specific organisation may use different titles, but it is not really correct.

************
Quote:
Finally: what does 'Secretary-General' mean in 'The Special Envoy of the Secretary-General(SESG) for Yemen is leading the UN's efforts to build consensus towards a political agreement in order to end the fighting in the country.'? Also, if it had been written as 'The Special Envoy of the General Secretary', then it would have been the same?

"Secretary-General" means The Secretary-General of the United Nations.

There is no such post as "General Secretary of the UN", so there cannot be a "Special Envoy of the General Secretary".









Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, December 6, 2018 6:44:58 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
There are post titles which are defined within the single organisation or government.
In the UK, these are the executives of the Ministry of Defence.

The Rt Hon Gavin Williamson CBE MP - Secretary of State for Defence
The Rt Hon Earl Howe - Minister of State for Defence
The Rt Hon Mark Lancaster TD MP - Minister of State for the Armed Forces
The Rt Hon Tobias Ellwood MP - Parliamentary Under Secretary of State and Minister for Defence People and Veterans
Stuart Andrew MP - Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Minister for Defence Procurement


Some newspapers (wrongly) call the Secretary of State for Defence "The Defence Minister" or "Minister of Defence".
There has not been a Minister of Defence for fifty years. There has never been a Defence Minister.
'The job' of the Minister of Defence (up till 1964) was almost the same as 'the job' of the Secretary of State for Defence now.


Thanks a lot, Dragonspeaker,
You got me confused 'The Minister Defence' or 'Minister of Defence' and 'the Secretary of State for Defence'.Think

Here in Yemen, and across the entire Middle East, I think, we only call 'The Minister Defence' or 'Minister of Defence'. We don't use the word 'Secretary' for any 'minister' as you mentioned, in 'the Secretary of State for Defence', and the other lists of yours.

We don't also call "the Foreign Secretary", or "former Yemen Defense Secretary".

Finally: what does 'Treasury Secretary' mean in "Asked by host Chris Wallace whether Trump listens primarily to hardliners like trad director peter Navarro - who has characterized China as the economic "parasite of the world" - or moderates like chief economic adviser Larry Kudlow and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, Tiankai responded simply, "You tell me."


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Friday, December 7, 2018 2:58:32 AM

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That's why Drago underlines the part where he writes "that organisation uses", it is correct when refering to the particular posts in the British Government to use those particular titles. However if you talk about equivalent posts in another countries Governments then they do not automatically use the same titles.

There is also the question of colloquial use rather than the actual title, the Secretary of State for Defence may be the official title of the post, but as Drago says it is often write as Minster of Defence by newspapers and other people.

Treasury Secretary refers to the Secretary of the Treasury in the United States of America the senior official responsible for Americas finances, to go back to the idea that every country has its own titles in the UK the equivalent post is the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

There are also other differences the Secretary of the Treasury is appointed by the President and can come from any walk of life he likes, in the UK the Chancellor of the Exchequer is always an elected MP.

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
Romany
Posted: Friday, December 7, 2018 1:45:46 PM
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I think most of us manage not to worry about any of this. We know that if the Seretary of State or the Surgeon General etc. ever happens to contact us we will just copy the way their title and address is written in their letter if we need to write back!
RuthP
Posted: Saturday, December 8, 2018 3:01:22 PM

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Romany wrote:

I think most of us manage not to worry about any of this. We know that if the Seretary of State or the Surgeon General etc. ever happens to contact us we will just copy the way their title and address is written in their letter if we need to write back!

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