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Trump is Taking Children from Parents Who Are Asylum Seekers Options
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 1:00:51 PM

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Thanks PD.

It is nice that many people are compassionate to other humans in fear for their lives no matter their color and are helping them. A senator was just at the camps and corroborates what you said about the fact it is still happening despite the court order. It must be scary to see your govt breaking down, and not even obeying the courts now.

The Toronto shooter had had paychological problems for years. His parents had done everything but meds and psychotherapy had not helped.

I would like to know where he got the gun. A couple of years ago the conservative government got rid of a gun registry that the police said helped them to track the stolen guns from the US. After they dismantled years of work, the numbers of smuggled guns increased as did the gun violence in Canada, particularly Toronto.

My husband and son just decided to have some father son bonding over target shooting with a friend in the condo who works at a range.It is compulsory that they both must take a two day course on safety and take a written and practical exam - the days lasting 13 hours each by the time they get the practical part over for each participant. The course they took is run by a man who was in the police force for 20 years and was an instructor then and also had been in the army. He is in charge of the firearm safety group now. They are both doing that now. They also have to buy a safe to store it. (Our son had a rifle as a teen but had never held the gun he had at rhe range when he went with the friend, yet he put five shots together within a target the size of a quarter. No wonder he wants to pursue the hobby. My husband also was a target shooter before we married.)

Then they need to qualify for a licence with an RCMP check, there's a waiting period, and then they can join the range. They may not carry a gun anywhere except to and from the range. There is a difference between restrictive and non restrictive guns and handguns are restricted.

Idiot Conservative leader says we need to loosen the laws and also allow those repeating AK14s or whatever they are called - machine guns to me. Both the federal and provincial. I hope I don't live long enough if both govts are led by idiot Conservatives. I used to be a Conservative until it was hijacked by the Reform Party from out west - like your Tea Party.

Anyhow, it was nice you noticed about those poor families in Toronto who were just going about their business or having lunch.



Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 1:01:21 PM

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Thanks PD.

It is nice that many people are compassionate to other humans in fear for their lives no matter their color and are helping them. A senator was just at the camps and corroborates what you said about the fact it is still happening despite the court order. It must be scary to see your govt breaking down, and not even obeying the courts now.

The Toronto shooter had had paychological problems for years. His parents had done everything but meds and psychotherapy had not helped.

I would like to know where he got the gun. A couple of years ago the conservative government got rid of a gun registry that the police said helped them to track the stolen guns from the US. After they dismantled years of work, the numbers of smuggled guns increased as did the gun violence in Canada, particularly Toronto.

My husband and son just decided to have some father son bonding over target shooting with a friend in the condo who works at a range.It is compulsory that they both must take a two day course on safety and take a written and practical exam - the days lasting 13 hours each by the time they get the practical part over for each participant. The course they took is run by a man who was in the police force for 20 years and was an instructor then and also had been in the army. He is in charge of the firearm safety group now. They are both doing that now. They also have to buy a safe to store it. (Our son had a rifle as a teen but had never held the gun he had at rhe range when he went with the friend, yet he put five shots together within a target the size of a quarter. No wonder he wants to pursue the hobby. My husband also was a target shooter before we married.)

Then they need to qualify for a licence with an RCMP check, there's a waiting period, and then they can join the range. They may not carry a gun anywhere except to and from the range. There is a difference between restrictive and non restrictive guns and handguns are restricted.

Idiot Conservative leader says we need to loosen the laws and also allow those repeating AK14s or whatever they are called - machine guns to me. Both the federal and provincial. I hope I don't live long enough if both govts are led by idiot Conservatives. I used to be a Conservative until it was hijacked by the Reform Party from out west - like your Tea Party.

Anyhow, it was nice you noticed about those poor families in Toronto who were just going about their business or having lunch.



Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 28, 2018 10:29:41 PM

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I know it's an old thread - but I hope to see no need to continue with it before long.

No investigations into the alleged abuse. Oh but Benghazi and her emails.

Money for parades but Puerto Ricans, who are American, are stilll in dire straits long after the hurricane. It is hoped that the Puerto Ricans who have moved to FL and now are allowed to vote use their privilege wisely.

The attorneys representing the children provided hundreds of pages of testimony detailing abuse and unsafe conditions they say violates the decades-old Flores consent degree — a settlement setting legal parameters for the treatment of children in immigration detention. The Trump administration’s request a few weeks ago to water down these standards was roundly rejected by Gee, who called it “a cynical attempt…to shift responsibility to the Judiciary for over 20 years of congressional inaction and ill-considered Executive action.”

Since then, a team of about 100 lawyers interviewed more than 200 migrant children and their parents, and submitted to the court reams of testimony describing physical and verbal assault, lack of food and water, sleep deprivation, and dangerously unsanitary conditions. The detainees described being kicked in their sleep, forced to drink toilet water, fed frozen and rotten food, denied medical treatment, and pushed to sign documents they could not read or understand.

The attorneys also say many children have been given psychotropic drugs without parental consent.

Justice Department attorney Sarah Fabian argued unsuccessfully that such a monitor is not necessary, and asked the judge to hold off until the Trump administration can investigate the alleged abuses and rebut them.



https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/judge-orders-monitor-for-immigrant-child-shelters-after-reported-abuses


Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Romany
Posted: Sunday, July 29, 2018 10:16:20 AM
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Ah jeez, Hope.

So each time Wilmar intervenes with one of his fatuous "Go, Trump Go" messages, or FD comes in with his inane "Got a good laugh!" out of people providing the facts about White House inhumanity, THIS is what they're standing up for?

How could anyone support these kinds of atrocities and still manage to walk erect?

Sickening. Absolutely sickening.
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, July 29, 2018 3:39:14 PM

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Romany,

Yeah. Makes you wonder.

Since Americans are not going to do anything more that what is eventually ordered by the courts, when are international bodies going to intervene with sanctions? I didn't bother to read it, but some woman in charge actually got an award for something.

Here's a limerick - written by an American on another dictionary site.

I thought the last line explains everything.

Evil mojo is still in the air,
but for right now, I vow to forswear
writing limericks critical
on topics political.
They don’t read. They don’t hear. They don’t care.



Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, July 29, 2018 10:14:32 PM

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Now the records of the kids have disappeared. WTF? What is going on?

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
progpen
Posted: Monday, July 30, 2018 7:36:35 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
Now the records of the kids have disappeared. WTF? What is going on?


As disgusting as this is, it should not surprise anyone who is paying attention. One thing that we should keep in mind is if they can make such high profile information disappear, how easy will it be for them to make other low profile information disappear. These people are at the highest levels of government and have no loyalty to the country or its citizens. They feel no responsibility outside the fulfillment of their own desires.

The current administration is that bright and shining proof to the world that the US is not capable of learning from the past.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
philips daughter
Posted: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 5:56:13 AM

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This is an old thread and I wish this isn’t true but, a child has died in custody at the border. All alone and afraid and sick.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 9:27:33 AM

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philips daughter wrote:
This is an old thread and I wish this isn’t true but, a child has died in custody at the border. All alone and afraid and sick.


Sigh. Sickening. Blood is on the hands of everyone who allowed this to happen or defends this policy. There are many children they expect will never see their parents again. I'm not going to drop this thread as long as I'm able until everything possible is done to get these families reunited.

Cruelty is a virus that is catching all over the world. And it is depressing. Just in a couple of years the emboldened scum is crawling out of the woodwork.

But there have been several arrests for racist tantrums accosting people of different colours/races in Canada the last couple of days, so maybe they will learn that is not tolerated.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, August 9, 2018 6:58:20 PM

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Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, August 9, 2018 10:02:52 PM

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The same government that's "pro-life" when it comes time to denying birth control or abortion is causing miscarriages in ICE detention. There's a Stop Shackling & Detaining Pregnant Women Act that aims to stop it. Good luck with that as they are neither white nor American. Under Obama they were not in detention.

Women in immigration detention are often denied adequate medical care, even when in dire need of it, are shackled around the stomach while being transported between facilities, and have been physically and psychologically mistreated. Some have described lying in blood, losing their baby while pleading for help that never came.


Illogical - In the tragic case of a young Central American immigrant who desired an abortion, the Trump administration battled the A.C.L.U. in court to prevent her from ending her pregnancy.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
mactoria
Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2018 9:16:17 AM
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So I googled (using several different key phrases) about the child who allegedly died in custody at the US border, and at least as of early August 11th, there is no proof that a child did indeed die 'in custody at the border.' As well, the stories that hit the media on August 1st, quoting immigration advocates who would provide no name, dates, or facts, indicate that the child (if he/she exists) died after he/she had been held in custody at the Dilley relocation center in Texas, not during custody, though allegedly negligent care while in custody of ICE/border authorities led to the alleged death. I saw a couple of media stories that quoted a tweet (tweets now seem to be the official communication of all federal gov't agencies these days) from an ICE representative flatly denying a child had died in custody...then asking the immigrant advocates for a name and some details so they could research whether it was true or not. Flatly denying something reflexively, then asking for info so it can be researched is a dead give away that our Fed gov't agencies are being running politically and defensively, instead of neutrally and according to their legal missions. So a child could have died post-custody, perhaps or from poor care under ICE custody, or it could be a false rumor calculated to inflame already high levels of anger.

To be clear: I don't support the 'no tolerance' ICE program or how it's been implemented; it horrified me too. But "fake news" and "fake facts" are wrong no matter whose side they come from. Those against the way the Trump Admin has handled border refugees and undocumented crossers only give ammunition to those supportive of the Admin and hold back the drive to get us going back in the direction of adhering to facts, truth, the Constitution, the American way, American values. Let those in the Admin and who support the Admin (in this as well as the Russia investigation, jacked up tariffs, insulting NATO, etc.) who try to make truth and facts unnecessary and inconvenient things in their effort to divide us be obvious in their deceit; if both or all sides are deceitful, then how can we reasonably expect people to see the light? I may be foolish, but I still hope that when most Americans are pounded with the weight of real facts, they'll see what the right side of matters is and take the country back in the right direction.


So I felt the need to weigh here. My argument is that we have to deal with facts and the truth, not rumors, gossip, fake facts, or hyperbole.



philips daughter
Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2018 10:37:41 AM

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You should check your facts at ABC 11 hours ago or Washington Post yesterday or the Texas Tribune. This did happen. You
philips daughter
Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2018 11:14:14 AM

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If you want google Texas Tribune/Emma Platoff.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2018 11:36:44 AM

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Point taken, Mactoria. It is always a good idea and I do try to verify facts as much as possible before posting. It is a lawyer group that alleges that a child did indeed die shortly after release. Not all details have been certified but a lawyer is helping the parents to get pro bono legal counsel for their case.

Edited with the link. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/immigration/migrant-child-reportedly-dies-after-release-from-ice-family-detention-facility/2018/08/01/6a9515ea-95a8-11e8-a679-b09212fb69c2_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.41461b2d399b

A Houston immigration lawyer, Mana Yegani, tweeted late Tuesday that a girl, who had suffered a respiratory illness while at Dilley, had died soon after her release. "The child died following her stay at an ICE Detention Center, as a result of possible negligent care and a respiratory illness she contracted from one of the other children,” the tweet said. She added that the girl had a grandmother in New Jersey.


How much did U.S. military intervention, deportation policy, and Drug War blunders contribute to making El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras unstable and dangerous places, especially for tweens and teens? And now they want to wash their hands of the consequences.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2018 11:55:26 AM

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Quote:
After reports of a child’s death emerged on social media, the child’s family has remained quiet, and its lawyers have declined to provide any identifying information about the child, including his or her name, age and specific cause of death.

ICE officials denied last week that a child had died in any of its facilities, but said they couldn’t investigate without more information. State officials and lawmakers lamented the same obstacle at a Thursday morning committee hearing, pleading with the family or their supporters to provide any further details.

Emma Platoff

Finally, after a week of refusing to give any details of the child who allegedly died at home, after being detained, the lawyers have told the investigating officials his/her name.

No child has died in custody at the border.

This doesn't exonerate the border officials, but it does show that exaggeration and unspecific blaming does cast doubt on the honesty of those putting it forward.

When dealing with dishonest people (and which politicians are not, to some degree dishonest?) one has to be very careful to tell exact truths, which can be proven.

What I see (an opinion, formed from what I have seen and heard FROM Pres. Trump and some of his close supporters, not his opponents) is that he is extremely forgetful, delusional or deliberately lying. This is based on the contrary 'facts' which have been communicated by his office at different times.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2018 12:08:46 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:


What I see (an opinion, formed from what I have seen and heard FROM Pres. Trump and some of his close supporters, not his opponents) is that he is extremely forgetful, delusional or deliberately lying. This is based on the contrary 'facts' which have been communicated by his office at different times.


I came here only to read your post, DragOnspeaker, as I expected reason and sense in it. You did not disappoint, but I am sorry to see you are currently being misinformed.

That's the problem with the current state of politics here in the States. My wife is peripherally involved with helping many of the immigrants who have crossed the border illegally with health issues, and the politicians (particularly the Democrat Party) are using this as a cudgel out of Trump hatred for losing the election.

The ignorance, foolishness and hate flowing on this topic has caused me to abandon it as worthless. As my ol' pappy used to say, "Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see".


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2018 1:21:46 PM

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Drago,

It is semantics to say the child did not die 'in' detention instead of 'because of' detention. Lawyers don't get involved unless they sense a case. Especially pro bono.

With a "whataboutism" POV, the question needs to be asked as to why one group needs to be held to the standard of the choice of a preposition when the opposing group's leader lies with pants on fire. Furthermore, why have the detention arrangements been so closely guarded? A senator was finally allowed in and decried the conditions. Without proper planning which was evident at ports of entry, it would make sense there would be less than favourable conditions. The children themselves have told stories. I tend to believe children over those CYAing. Pregnant women are also telling stories of neglect. The lawyers are the ones who are involved with the facts.

If these children and this child had not been detained to begin with, this would not be an issue. After being told by the courts the govt could not detain children with their families, Obama released entire families with ankle bracelets, and it worked. I think that is what the admin said they are doing now, (despite unproven reports to the contrary).

Trump's policies are what people are upset about. He could have stopped this with a phone call but that is not what he wants.

We will just have to wait to see when this case is resolved as to what the total truth is, by mainstream media, not Fox News. If it turns out the conditions and officials had nothing to do with the death, I will acknowledge the error, but my comments while believing someone who lives in the area are still applicable.

Causes for the refugees being there and at the Canadian border to begin with are conveniently ignored by Americans.

FD, what exactly is it that Drago is misinformed about?




Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2018 1:57:16 PM

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Hi Hope.

My point wasn't really about the child or the case.
It was more that - when dealing with a tricky, (politician), dishonest or delusional adversaries, you MUST be careful to be exact, or your argument loses force.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2018 2:18:27 PM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
when dealing with a tricky, (politician), dishonest or delusional adversaries, you MUST be careful to be exact, or your argument loses force.


Applause Applause Applause
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, August 11, 2018 5:52:37 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Hi Hope.

My point wasn't really about the child or the case.
It was more that - when dealing with a tricky, (politician), dishonest or delusional adversaries, you MUST be careful to be exact, or your argument loses force.


Well that certainly fits here. 😀

Good advice.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2018 10:15:30 PM

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Good news! For one child anyhow.

Avenatti has been fighting for the "underdog" for 18 years. And it seems the press and twitter have some pull after all, even over judges?

I hope we get a pic tomorrow of Antony being reunited with his mother.



Today on Twitter:

Michael Avenatti: @ricardo_de_anda & I appeared in ct today to attempt to allow us to take our client Antony home to mom in Guatemala TODAY. The govt opposed our request - he will now have to stay perhaps another 2 mos here. He hasn’t seen his mom in 81 days. Trump and his cronies have no heart.

(Another tweeter: What judge in Houston denied this child the opportunity to be reunited with his family⁉️I thought the courts ordered the families reunited⁉️I want to know the name of the judge❗️I want to see if the judge is running for re-election❗️)

Avenatti:
I have been negotiating with the government since my stmts to the press this morning and my last tweet. It now appears that they will grant me custody and allow me to take Antony home to his mother in Guatemala on a flight tonight, after 81 days of being separated.

Avenatti later:

81 days after being forcibly separated from his mother due to the cruel and unusual president, Antony is going home to Guatemala to be reunited with his mother. Finally.



Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2018 9:42:01 AM

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Michael Avenatti:It ends today at 81 days for Antony and Elsa. But continues for over 500 others...







Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, August 16, 2018 8:59:12 AM

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Trump was ordered by the courts to clean up the mess he made at the border, But he’s too busy tweeting about Omarosa calling her a "dog" and demeaning women/minorities. He doesn’t have time to deal with unimportant issues like trying to save kids.

Michael Avenatti tweeted today: There are approx 56 Guatemalan children in Houston and McAllen (in custody) who were separated from their parents at the border. We are working on gaining their release to me so that I can fly them home ASAP to their parents. This mess needs to be cleaned-up NOW.


Yesterday Avenatti tweeted: My deepest appreciation to @NewSanctuaryNYC for stepping up to care for our refugee clients. They have taken dozens of clients under their wings, as we get them released from detention, and provide them transportation, housing, and other assistance. They are true humanitarians.

PS - One of the few things Trump got right -- he doesn't own a dog! One of the few presidents who didn't. Dogs are friends to humans so the name calling should be a compliment, but in Trump's eyes it is a slam.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Friday, August 17, 2018 12:33:35 PM

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Tweet today by Michael Avenatti giving credit where it is due, as he did to the New Sanctuary NYC:

The Consulate of Guatemala in Houston, Texas should be applauded for their tremendous efforts in assisting us in reuniting Guatemalan children with their parents. Mr. Ricardo Maldonado (Consul General) & Ms. Dora Olmedo (Vice Consul) have gone above and beyond for these children.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, September 13, 2018 10:31:06 AM

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Updates:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-admin-plans-hold-migrant-kids-indefinitely-defying-decades-old-n907006

The Trump administration announced a new rule Thursday that would allow immigrant children with their parents to be held in detention indefinitely, upending a ban on indefinite detention that has been in place for 20 years.
The rule, proposed by the departments of Homeland Security and Health and Human Services, goes into effect in 60 days and will allow Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to keep children with their mothers in detention facilities while their cases for asylum play out in court.

Also: https://www.nytimes.com

Population levels at federally contracted shelters for migrant children have quietly shot up more than fivefold since last summer, according to data obtained by The New York Times, reaching a total of 12,800 this month. There were 2,400 such children in custody in May 2017.
The huge increases, which have placed the federal shelter system near capacity, are due not to an influx of children entering the country, but a reduction in the number being released to live with families and other sponsors, the data collected by the Department of Health and Human Services suggests. Some of those who work in the migrant shelter network say the bottleneck is straining both the children and the system that cares for them.
Most of the children crossed the border alone, without their parents. Many are teenagers from Central America, and they are housed in a system of more than 100 shelters across the United States, with the highest concentration near the southwest border.


Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
mactoria
Posted: Saturday, September 15, 2018 12:20:41 AM
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This thread seems to have a long life, because the original issue --- detention of children away from their parents at the US/Mexico border --- just doesn't ever get resolved.

We/media focused so intensively on those children just recently separated at the border from their parents under the new Trump policy, the fact that there were thousands of children and adolescents already in detention around the country never really came up. 12,800 adolescents, mainly those who came alone without a parent (or got separated from a parent before ICE took them into custody) is a huge number of children for the US to have in custody for any amount of time, much less indefinitely as Hope123 informs us from Thursday's announcement. As for the indefinite detention policy, I take solace only in that the ACLU, RAICES, and other advocacy/civil rights organizations will be filing for an injunction shortly to stop this policy from being put into effect. Of course, the Administration also is known for flouting court rulings and implementing policies regardless of what our legitimate courts say.

But back to the existing 12,800 adolescents in detention now around the US: aside from issues of humanity and compassion and due process, US citizens should be in arms because we're paying huge amounts of money for their care/housing while ICE and the federal courts twiddle their thumbs. Earlier this week Senator Jeff Merkley made public information showing that the Feds have transferred $20milion or more this year from non-immigration line items (e.g. FEMA...right before a big hurricane) to pay for these incarcerations; the Feds didn't announce these transfers or the reason for them, they did them in the dark.

These young people are being held in a variety of environments, many in the child-version of 'private prisons,' a bad concept that some states and now the Federal gov't have embraced. 'Private prisons' are less accountable and less accessible to those who want to assure safe and decent accommodations. They aren't cheap for the taxpayer (private prisons once were advertised as a cheaper way to incarcerate prisoners, to get around paying union wages as well as a faster-to-build option for states with crime problems and inadequate jail space), and depending on how DHS/HHS wrote and supervises the contracts with them, may be a honeypot for the investors who scrape off a big-sized chunk for profits so money for food, quality housing, trained and screened staff, etc. is inadequate. Even those lucky enough not to be detained in institutional 'private prisons for kids,' are taking up the already inadequate child foster/foster-like system; across the country county child agencies go begging to find homes for kids removed from parents in prison or found abusive/negligent. What are we doing with almost 13,000 non-American kids under gov't custody for long periods of time, why won't the Feds increase the number of Federal judges and prosecutors to move these kids in/out of the system: let them live with sponsors or let them have refugee status, or send them back to their home countries. But don't keep adolescents in limbo for long periods of time during their developmental phase, many in institutional prison-like environments.

Hope123
Posted: Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:37:32 PM

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Mactoria wrote: What are we doing with almost 13,000 non-American kids under gov't custody for long periods of time, why won't the Feds increase the number of Federal judges and prosecutors to move these kids in/out of the system: let them live with sponsors or let them have refugee status, or send them back to their home countries. But don't keep adolescents in limbo for long periods of time during their developmental phase, many in institutional prison-like environments.


Good points, Mactoria. Thanks for all the honesty and info. I'm not American so it is good to hear from you. It is surreal to me.



Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
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