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FounDit
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2018 1:46:18 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,893
Neurons: 51,941
I found this interesting as it relates to the discussion of our expanding universe in another thread.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2018/08/22/physicists-think-theyve-spotted-ghosts-black-holes-from-another-universe.html

Some interesting thoughts and ideas from the article on the most highly rated cable news outlet in America (heh, heh, heh). [Couldn't resist. I rarely watch it, but I do read it]:
"...universes bubble up, expand and die in sequence, with black holes from each leaving traces in the universes that follow."

Does that mean we're the fizz in someone's carbonated cola drink in a much larger universe?...Think

Here's an interesting thought:

"Gravitons and photons, massless light speed travelers, don't experience time and space the same way we — and all the other massive, slower-moving objects in the universe— do. Einstein's theory of relativity dictates that objects with mass seem to move through time slower as they approach the speed of light, and distances become skewed from their perspective. Massless objects like photons and gravitons travel at the speed of light, so they don't experience time or distance at all."

They don't experience time or distance at all, yet travel at the speed of light. Hmm, isn't speed a function of time and distance? If you have neither, how can something "travel"?...Think

Here's another:
"At that point, some physicists (including Penrose) argue, the vast, empty, post-black-hole universe starts to resemble the ultra-compressed universe at the moment of the big bang, where there's no time or distance between anything."

So the universe is composed at that point of photons and gravitons "traveling" at the speed of light. If memory serves, Einstein said things become as large as the universe when "traveling" at the speed of light. Yet here we are told that the universe begins to resemble an ultra-compressed universe. So it's filled with "traveling" photons and gravitons, and ultra-compressed at the same time?...d'oh!


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
renee talley 1
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2018 8:36:41 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 8/1/2018
Posts: 158
Neurons: 2,816
Dancing I do believe that God hand selected people with beautiful minds. The knowledge & interest to
be able to pass the amazing facts that Gallleo and other wise Socrates Plato and NASA's growing interest what constitutes growth of other galaxy other planets yet to be discovered. Studies show how older planets reveal to scientist form a theory of bountiful knowledge.
Many universes yet to be discovered is NASA's primary interest to delve to teach more about why these unknown universes have a vast majority interest of inquiring minds.d'oh! Shhh Applause
RuthP
Posted: Friday, August 24, 2018 12:53:49 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 5,223
Neurons: 63,603
Location: Drain, Oregon, United States
As you read my responses, below, please understand that I don't really 'get' this. It is something on which I have a tenuous grasp while I am reading some explanatory writing. Once I've finished with the book or article, all the understanding seems to leak out of my head, not to be replaced until I find another (or reread an) explanation.

FounDit wrote:
I found this interesting as it relates to the discussion of our expanding universe in another thread.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2018/08/22/physicists-think-theyve-spotted-ghosts-black-holes-from-another-universe.html

Some interesting thoughts and ideas from the article on the most highly rated cable news outlet in America (heh, heh, heh). [Couldn't resist. I rarely watch it, but I do read it]:
"...universes bubble up, expand and die in sequence, with black holes from each leaving traces in the universes that follow."

Does that mean we're the fizz in someone's carbonated cola drink in a much larger universe?...Think
No, it means universes arise out of (?) / in (?) something called the quantum foam.

Here's an interesting thought:

"Gravitons and photons, massless light speed travelers, don't experience time and space the same way we — and all the other massive, slower-moving objects in the universe— do. Einstein's theory of relativity dictates that objects with mass seem to move through time slower as they approach the speed of light, and distances become skewed from their perspective. Massless objects like photons and gravitons travel at the speed of light, so they don't experience time or distance at all."

They don't experience time or distance at all, yet travel at the speed of light. Hmm, isn't speed a function of time and distance? If you have neither, how can something "travel"?...Think
This one I actually feel comfortable answering: speed is a function of time and distance only in a Newtonian universe. That does not hold in a quantum universe. Einstein first described this. It has been significantly expanded since. The problem we have is that we perceive a Newtonian universe. It is possible to understand quantum physics only through mathematics which most of us (me included) are not going to be sufficiently advanced in math to figure or understand, or through experimentation, which also involves a certain amount of math. Physicists have experimental evidence at (what I consider to be) both ends (so to speak) of physics: the extraordinarily large astronomical physics end, and the extraordinarily small sub-atomic physics end.

Here's another:
"At that point, some physicists (including Penrose) argue, the vast, empty, post-black-hole universe starts to resemble the ultra-compressed universe at the moment of the big bang, where there's no time or distance between anything."

So the universe is composed at that point of photons and gravitons "traveling" at the speed of light. If memory serves, Einstein said things become as large as the universe when "traveling" at the speed of light. Yet here we are told that the universe begins to resemble an ultra-compressed universe. So it's filled with "traveling" photons and gravitons, and ultra-compressed at the same time?...d'oh!
Not large, massive. It is our limitation that our Newtonian selves have trouble 'seeing' (at a gut level at least) massive meaning a very high mass, related to--but not the same as--weight, without 'seeing' large.


I have a recommendation for you, if you want an easy pursuit of this. My public library does a thing with all kinds of fairly new books where they label multiple copies as "two books, three weeks, no renewal". One may take out two of these at a time, keep them for three weeks, but there is no renewal allowed (unless you go see a librarian and there is another copy available at that branch). So, I always look at these, because it gets me reading things I didn't know were out there.

Last year, I read the single best book I have read in years. At least five, probably ten years. (And I read a lot, really a lot, multiple books in a week. [A lot of that is fiction, so it reads very fast. Don't be too impressed.]) This is a small, very readable book. I finished it in just over a week (Yes, while I was reading other things, too.). I kept it another week, just so I could re-read it. Then I went out and bought the book, which was only available in hardback at the time, at the current high prices for physical books, which are generally worse for nonfiction than for fiction. It is that good!

Reality Is Not What It Seems: The Journey To Quantum Gravity, by Carlo Rovelli. The author is an Italian Physicist. The book explains a bit of history, where we are now, what is thought likely, what he thinks likely, what we don't know/can't prove (yet). It is, as I said, highly readable and understandable. I might help if one had had high school physics, but I don't think it would be necessary at all.


FounDit
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2018 10:20:26 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,893
Neurons: 51,941
RuthP wrote:
As you read my responses, below, please understand that I don't really 'get' this. It is something on which I have a tenuous grasp while I am reading some explanatory writing. Once I've finished with the book or article, all the understanding seems to leak out of my head, not to be replaced until I find another (or reread an) explanation.

Me too. I find the subject interesting until I get into it, then I can't seem to keep up with the definitions sometimes. I still can't wrap my mind around the difference between mass and size. I guess you are right in that I still think in Newtonian terms. From what I've read, mass and energy are the same, so I have no reference for how something can increase to infinite mass (energy) and be ultra-compressed at the same time.

The book sounds like it might be interesting. All I have to do now is try to motivate myself enough to get it. I'm interested, but not quite interested since it really doesn't have any impact on my day-to-day life.




We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
RuthP
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2018 12:49:57 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 5,223
Neurons: 63,603
Location: Drain, Oregon, United States
FounDit wrote:
RuthP wrote:
As you read my responses, below, please understand that I don't really 'get' this. It is something on which I have a tenuous grasp while I am reading some explanatory writing. Once I've finished with the book or article, all the understanding seems to leak out of my head, not to be replaced until I find another (or reread an) explanation.

Me too. I find the subject interesting until I get into it, then I can't seem to keep up with the definitions sometimes. I still can't wrap my mind around the difference between mass and size. I guess you are right in that I still think in Newtonian terms. From what I've read, mass and energy are the same, so I have no reference for how something can increase to infinite mass (energy) and be ultra-compressed at the same time.

The book sounds like it might be interesting. All I have to do now is try to motivate myself enough to get it. I'm interested, but not quite interested since it really doesn't have any impact on my day-to-day life.

There is an old (possibly from the `50s) Charlie Brown strip that I saw in a book of Charlie Brown comics my folks had when I was a kid. My memory of it is imperfect. I've not found it since, but . . .

The gist is, Lucy is on a rant about something, probably either school or knowing what is going on with her friends. She spends two or three panels ranting about how she wants to know this and wants to know that. The final panel ends with her saying "I'll never be satisfied until I know too much for my own good!"

I can remember looking at it and thinking "Yes! That's me!" So I read. Lots and lots of stuff. Most of which either does not relate to, or has only the most tangential relationship to my "life" in terms of what happens day to day. I'll never be satisfied until I know everything.
will
Posted: Sunday, August 26, 2018 10:03:50 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
Posts: 1,148
Neurons: 4,732
FounDit wrote:
From what I've read, mass and energy are the same

That’s not quite correct. E=MC2, the mathematical equation that I think you are referring to, is not a linguistic definition; it does not mean that E and M are the same thing. The equation means that when energy, E, enters or leaves a system, the system gains or loses mass equal to E divided by C2 (C being the speed of light, squared.)

FounDit wrote:
so I have no reference for how something can increase to infinite mass (energy) and be ultra-compressed at the same time.

This is where Einstein's General and Special relativity break down. No one ‘knows’, so you are in good company.

RuthP. If you haven't read it already, I would recommend 'Universal: A Journey Trough The Cosmos' by Brian Cox and Jeff Forshaw. It uses examples, from simple to advanced, that anyone can theoretically test for themselves, to explain just about everything... in a very concise book. No mean feat.


.

Elvandil
Posted: Saturday, September 1, 2018 1:09:53 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/5/2014
Posts: 311
Neurons: 128,310
Location: East Montpelier, Vermont, United States
One thing that we always need to remember when we see efforts to put mathematical knowledge into words is that language restricts what we may say and think. In our universe, time began with the Big Bang. There existed no time "before" that and even discussing it has no meaning. Time is the element that is so often glossed over or left out of many discussions and articles. But just as time will end in our universe, and what happens "after" is a concept with no meaning, there was not and cannot be anything before or after our own existence. I think that when Einstein said that the time we each experience may be the only time that there is, he was not waxing poetic, but meant it quite literally.







(議思不の界世) pןɹoʍ ǝɥʇ ɟo sɹǝpuoʍ ǝɥʇ ɟo ǝuo sı ǝpoɔıun
RuthP
Posted: Saturday, September 1, 2018 9:30:20 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 5,223
Neurons: 63,603
Location: Drain, Oregon, United States
will wrote:
FounDit wrote:
From what I've read, mass and energy are the same

That’s not quite correct. E=MC2, the mathematical equation that I think you are referring to, is not a linguistic definition; it does not mean that E and M are the same thing. The equation means that when energy, E, enters or leaves a system, the system gains or loses mass equal to E divided by C2 (C being the speed of light, squared.)

FounDit wrote:
so I have no reference for how something can increase to infinite mass (energy) and be ultra-compressed at the same time.

This is where Einstein's General and Special relativity break down. No one ‘knows’, so you are in good company.

RuthP. If you haven't read it already, I would recommend 'Universal: A Journey Trough The Cosmos' by Brian Cox and Jeff Forshaw. It uses examples, from simple to advanced, that anyone can theoretically test for themselves, to explain just about everything... in a very concise book. No mean feat.

Thank you! I'll look for it.
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