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Round up on Options
D00M
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 5:48:25 PM

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Hello respected teachers,
Is "round up on" a phrasal verb?
I checked my dictionary for it but to no avail.
Here is the context in which I found it:
"And now to round up on today's sporting fixtures."

The custom of speaking is the original and only just standard of any language. Joseph Priestly- Rudiments of EG, 1761.
FounDit
Posted: Monday, July 9, 2018 9:01:39 PM

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D00M wrote:
Hello respected teachers,
Is "round up on" a phrasal verb?
I checked my dictionary for it but to no avail.
Here is the context in which I found it:
"And now to round up on today's sporting fixtures."


No, it is not very good English. The idiom "round up" means to collect together. It started in the Old West of America to mean gathering cattle and the use spread from there. So a better sentence would have been: "And now to round up today's sporting fixtures." The word "on" should be omitted.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 3:23:30 AM

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I would say the same in my British dialect.

You could say "And now to round up today's sporting fixtures" or (using its noun form)
"And now, a round-up of today's sporting fixtures".

Oddly 'round-up' is not shown in any of the normal "TFD" dictionaries - but is in the Collins English/Spanish dictionary, translated as 'resumen' - a summary, summing-up or résumé.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
sureshot
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 4:09:16 AM
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In the given sentence, "round-up" is a noun and means "a summary of facts or events". The noun "round-up" usually refers to a statement on the radio or television of the main points of the news
Refer: (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/round-up)and (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/round-up)

Some sentence examples are:

- After a long break, here's a round-up of news from Hardware Land. (Oxford Dictionary)
- While the Boat Race fans are on the Thames towpath here, the soccer supporters will be out on the terraces this Easter, and no-one will be shouting louder than at the County ground, where Swindon are taking on West Bromwich Albion. Here's a round-up of all the soccer news. Starting with Hereford's dreams of reaching Wembley in the Sherpa Van trophy which were blown away last night by the Wolves. (British National Corpus; Central News (03): TV news).
- Still to come, Conservatives on Oxfordshire County Council say there won't need to be cuts in services to stay within next year's Government budget estimate. First, with a round-up of the day's local news, here's Paul Kirby.(British National Corpus;Fox FM News: radio programme).
- And for those for whom the name means nothing, Christian Slater was the embittered young Will Scarlet in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves. Show-off. So, join us at five to one tomorrow for that plus a round-up of all the news in Scotland. But for now, from all of us on the lunchtime team, good afternoon. (British National Corpus; Scottish TV -- news scripts).

There are numerous other sentence examples.

The Ngram Viewer shows that both "round-up of" and "round-up on" is used in both British English and American English. The use of "round-up of" seems to be more popular. Personally, I too prefer "round-up of"
BobShilling
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 4:35:47 AM
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sureshot wrote:
In the given sentence, "round-up" is a noun and means "a summary of facts or events".

If it were, it would need an indefinite article before it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 4:55:00 AM

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BobShilling wrote:
sureshot wrote:
In the given sentence, "round-up" is a noun and means "a summary of facts or events".

If it were, it would need an indefinite article before it.

And it would not have the particle "to".

It would be as I said I would say "And now, a round-up of today's sporting fixtures."

What is written used 'round up' as a verb (with a hyphen, no article, but the particle 'to').

"And now to round up on today's sporting fixtures."

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
sureshot
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:16:15 AM
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Yes indeed. "Round" can be used as a verb and also as a noun. My focus was on "round-up + preposition" where "round-up" is a noun. "To" would also need to be deleted and replaced by "a"

Original sentence:

- "And now to round up on today's sporting fixtures."

Suggested sentence:

- "And now a round-up of today's sporting fixtures."

When used as a verb, "round up" is used and no additional preposition is required. If "to + infinitive" pattern is desired, the sentence is incomplete and requires further words/phrases to complete it. The pattern will now be:

- - "And now to round up today's sporting fixtures, here are the ...."


Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 7:35:56 AM

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I agree. All the suggestions are similar - they are actually phrases, not even clauses.

"And now, a round-up of today's sporting fixtures" is just "and now" and a long phrase acting as a noun "a round-up of today's sporting fixtures" - there is no verb at all in the statement.

"And now, to round up today's sporting fixtures" is an infinitive phrase (an infinitive verb plus object-phrase and an adverb).

This last one could (as you show) act as an adverb in a sentence like:
"And now, to round up today's sporting fixtures, here are the major football, rugby and tennis games."
Or it could act as a noun, as the object of a verb of intention:
"And now I am planning to round up today's sporting fixtures."

*****************
I went a step further with the ngram viewer and looked at the actual sentences shown for "round-up on". There are a total of twenty-five examples found.
Twenty-two of them are articles about the Monsanto glyphosphate poison called "Roundup" or "Round-Up". The other three instances actually have a full stop between the two words.

"U.S. growers used only Roundup on 83% of their soybean . . ."
". . . the yield achieved from Roundup on soybeans."
"The ranchers organised a roundup. . On many of the large spreads . . ."
". . . the effects of Round-Up on soil is such . . ."
". . . test score was one of the top five in this roundup. . On our High-End Disk . . ."

I don't see any valid use of "roundup" or "round-up" as a noun meaning "a collection or summary" directly followed by the preposition "on".


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
D00M
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:25:08 AM

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Thank you all.

I saw the phrase in the book "Test your listening" by Patricia Aspinal:
http://www.cambridge.org/us/cambridgeenglish/authors/patricia-aspinall

The custom of speaking is the original and only just standard of any language. Joseph Priestly- Rudiments of EG, 1761.
D00M
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 8:47:13 AM

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And here is the recording in which I heard it:
https://vocaroo.com/i/s10zi9EZjIMX

The custom of speaking is the original and only just standard of any language. Joseph Priestly- Rudiments of EG, 1761.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:12:09 AM

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That is what is said.

It does not make sense, really - though I would understand what was meant.

The definitions of 'round up' as a verb are these (the Oxford doesn't even admit that such a phrase exists):
round up
1. To seek out and bring together; gather.
2. To herd (cattle) together from various places.

American Heritage
1. to gather (animals, suspects, etc) together: to round ponies up.
2. to raise (a number) to the nearest whole number or ten, hundred, or thousand above it. Compare round down


None of these meanings would use "on".

"And now to bring together on today's sporting fixtures
"And now to round up on today's sporting fixtures"
"

"And now to bring together today's sporting fixtures"
"And now to round up today's sporting fixtures"



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
sureshot
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 12:25:07 PM
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For the curious minded, here is a sentence that uses "round-up on" from British National Corpus

- Understanding the ins and outs of all your mortgage options is never simple, but we have made it as easy as possible in the comprehensive Money Matters section starting on page 20. If you are in the market for a new home, read the round-up on page 47 and 48, which gives details of new home developments across the country.

The choice of preposition "on", "of" etc depends on the sentence pattern. While, it is possible to construct sentences using "round-up on", such sentences are not frequently constructed. When "round-up" is used as a noun, an hyphen is necessary as also checked from Oxford Dictionary and Cambridge Dictionary.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

Here are two references which give the meaning of the noun "round-up"

Oxford Dictionary: (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/round-up_)

1.1 A summary of facts or events.
‘a news round-up every fifteen minutes’

Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary and Cambridge Dictionary (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/round-up) give the meaning of "round-up" as "a statement on the radio or television of the main points of the news".
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 1:18:23 PM

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Yes - however, this statement definitely uses "to round up" as a verb.

You may also notice that some dictionaries give the noun as a single word. A roundup.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
BobShilling
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 2:48:42 PM
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sureshot wrote:
For the curious minded, here is a sentence that uses "round-up on" from British National Corpus

- [...] If you are in the market for a new home, read the round-up on page 47 and 48, which gives details of new home developments across the country.


'Round-up on' is not a phrase in that sentence. We have the NP 'the round-up' followed by a preposition phrase. The preposition is 'on' because of the following 'page 47 and 48'. It has nothing to do with the word 'round-up'. The noun could have been 'analysis', 'summary', 'report', or any of several other words. If 'page 47 and 48' had been, for example, the business section'. the preposition would have been 'in'.
sureshot
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 12:48:17 AM
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BobShilling wrote:


'Round-up on' is not a phrase in that sentence. We have the NP 'the round-up' followed by a preposition phrase. The preposition is 'on' because of the following 'page 47 and 48'. It has nothing to do with the word 'round-up'. The noun could have been 'analysis', 'summary', 'report', or any of several other words. If 'page 47 and 48' had been, for example, the business section'. the preposition would have been 'in'.[/color]


__________________________________________

Different grammarians use different expressions to convey their intended meaning. Some grammarians say that noun followed by a preposition is a "noun phrase", just an "adjective/adverb + preposition" is an "adjective/adverb phrase". However, a "verb + preposition' is a phrasal verb. The expression "round-up + on" is a noun phrase. The noun/noun group following the preposition is the object of the preposition.

As already mentioned, a noun can be followed by a variety of prepositions. It depends on the sentence pattern and the ensuing noun/noun group etc after the preposition. "In" is yet one more preposition that can follow the noun "round-up".

Without getting into the terminology used by different grammarians, my focus is on:

1. The use of "round-up" with a hyphen as mentioned in Oxford Dictionary and Cambridge Dictionary which are considered for reference to British English.

2. The noun "round-up" (with a hyphen) takes a variety of prepositions. The choice depends on the sentence pattern and the intended sense of the preposition.

3. One meaning of the noun "round-up" as mentioned in both Oxford Dictionary and Cambridge Dictionary is " summary of facts or events" as already mentioned.

4. Yes some dictionaries also mention "roundup" to convey the same sense.
sureshot
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 12:58:02 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

You may also notice that some dictionaries give the noun as a single word. A roundup.

__________________

Yes, "roundup" is a word and Oxford Dictionary mentions it to convey the sense of "round-up"
BobShilling
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 2:05:52 AM
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sureshot wrote:
Some grammarians say that noun followed by a preposition is a "noun phrase", just an "adjective/adverb + preposition" is an "adjective/adverb phrase". However, a "verb + preposition' is a phrasal verb.


That depends on the whole sentence. In "I am going to read a book on Shakespeare", 'a book on Shakespeare' is a noun phrase. In "I am going to read a book on Friday", 'a book on Friday" is not a noun phrase. In "I looked up the word in a dictionary", 'looked up' is a phrasal verb. In "I looked up the chimney', it is not.


Quote:
As already mentioned, a noun can be followed by a variety of prepositions. It depends on the sentence pattern and the ensuing noun/noun group etc after the preposition. "In" is yet one more preposition that can follow the noun "round-up".

Can you give an example of 'round-up' followed by 'in'? I am not talking about a sentence such as "I took part in a round-up in Montana last year", in which the preposition has nothing to do with the noun preceding it, but an example such as "She took an interest in her nephew's education", in which the preposition does depend on the noun.

Quote:
3. One meaning of the noun "round-up" as mentioned in both Oxford Dictionary and Cambridge Dictionary is " summary of facts or events" as already mentioned.

Indeed, and in that sense,the preposition before the noun denoting what is being summarised is 'of', not 'on'.
sureshot
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 6:32:45 AM
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BobShilling wrote:
sureshot wrote:
Some grammarians say that noun followed by a preposition is a "noun phrase", just an "adjective/adverb + preposition" is an "adjective/adverb phrase". However, a "verb + preposition' is a phrasal verb.


That depends on the whole sentence. In "I am going to read a book on Shakespeare", 'a book on Shakespeare' is a noun phrase. In "I am going to read a book on Friday", 'a book on Friday" is not a noun phrase. In "I looked up the word in a dictionary", 'looked up' is a phrasal verb. In "I looked up the chimney', it is not.


MY RESPONSE: It has not been said that all prepositions after a verb constitute a phrasal verb.

Quote:
As already mentioned, a noun can be followed by a variety of prepositions. It depends on the sentence pattern and the ensuing noun/noun group etc after the preposition. "In" is yet one more preposition that can follow the noun "round-up".

Can you give an example of 'round-up' followed by 'in'? I am not talking about a sentence such as "I took part in a round-up in Montana last year", in which the preposition has nothing to do with the noun preceding it, but an example such as "She took an interest in her nephew's education", in which the preposition does depend on the noun.

MY RESPONSE: It has not been said that all prepositions can follow all nouns! "Round-up" is a noun and it usually takes the preposition "of". An example sentence using the preposition "on" after "round-up" has already been mentioned. Sentences with the preposition "on" are not frequent. The use of preposition "in" after the noun "round-up" will depend on the sentence pattern. One sentence that comes to my mind is "His comprehensive daily round-ups in five minutes are truly very interesting". Another example sentence is "The farmer undertakes a rattlesnake round-up in the summer season in order to rid the farmland of snakes and make it safer for livestock". In this sentence, the noun "round-up" refers to the act or process of finding and gathering things of the same kind". "By" is yet one more preposition that can follow "round-up'. An example sentence is "The newspaper concludes this round-up by stating that ‘the movie delivers what it should - cheap thrills - and serves them up with skill and economy’. I do not wish to enter into a debate on the nomenclature of the pattern "noun + preposition" used by different grammarians. I restrict my post to the topic "noun + preposition" as applicable to the noun "round-up".

Quote:
3. One meaning of the noun "round-up" as mentioned in both Oxford Dictionary and Cambridge Dictionary is " summary of facts or events" as already mentioned.

Indeed, and in that sense,the preposition before the noun denoting what is being summarised is 'of', not 'on'.


MY RESPONSE: Nowhere have I said that the preposition "on" is appropriate after the noun "round-up" as used in the original sentence. In order to convey the intended sense, the construction using the noun "round-up" takes the preposition "of". The use of preposition "on" after "round-up" in the given sentence does not arise. The use of preposition "on" after "round-up" is applicable in the type of example sentence already mentioned.


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