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The Real Memes Options
leonAzul
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 4:52:46 AM

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Quote:
Epiphileon wrote:

oops sorry that was amby gooey.*


*not a real phrase just me screwing around with "ambiguous"


I, for one, approve of this neologism.
Dancing


"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
leonAzul
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 5:40:52 AM

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Location: Miami, Florida, United States
Epiphileon wrote:

I wouldn't say it that way, it is too close to the same error Dr. Blackmore seems to make in her "temes" talk. Memes shape our behavior, can even limit the choices of behaviors we take particularly when you have a complex memetic structure like a belief system; however, the decision making processes that direct our behavior belong to the mental processes that make each of us unique individuals, the combination of which we think of as "I". While those do define who we are as individuals, we no more determine what those are than we do what color eyes we have. The "I" that is our experience of those, our consciousnesses, are an awareness of those occurring.

So a repertoire of potential can find a myriad of expression according to the environment.

Again, while this presentation can serve as a valuable talking point, I would assert that it was not intended as a point final.

Dr. Blackmore did not err, except in the sense that her sense of humor obfuscated the fundamental point of the presentation: replicators gotta replicate, and that genes, memes, and temes can all be considered members of the class of replicators.

As Nietsche observed, this is beyond Good® and Evil®.
Think

It is a call to more closely examine the axioms and assumptions that underlie our most cherished mores and the rituals that habituate them and form conditioned responses.

Epiphileon wrote:

So again the question would be. how does an awareness of an occurrence get out in front of an occurrence in order to direct it?


That, my brother, is the million dollar question.

"Make it go away, Mrs Whatsit," he whispered. "Make it go away. It's evil."
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 4:29:52 PM

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Joined: 9/19/2011
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Epiphileon wrote:
FounDit wrote:
If I think of influence rather than infection, then agreement is more easily accommodated. So I just needed to change my thinking and choose to become "influenced" in another direction...Think


I suspected the problem was in the semantics, however, I still wonder about this phrasing,"I just needed to change my thinking..." This sounds like you're talking about the I we refer to as consciousness, and not the I that is the individual manifested as the result of our unconscious psychological components.

As you can see I'm still chasing this new distinction of the two I's.


Think ...hmmm, well, I'm not sure I buy into "two I's". It was merely that, upon reflection, I became aware that I held two distinctly different associations with the words "infection" and "influence". Recognizing that I was being "influenced" by one grouping more negatively than the other, I chose to go with the milder word so as not to be distracted into a negative channel of thought relative to "meme". A fancy way of saying I wanted to get my thinking straighter.

But it seems to me that there is only one "I", and that is the conscious self-aware "I" that is composed of all my experiences and some memories I can consciously recall. There is also a whole collection of memories that I cannot recall, but I don't believe they belong to a separate "I". They are what I refer to as my "information surfeit"...Dancing

And while they affected me when they occurred, and no doubt continue to have some influence, I think it's safer to evaluate memes from a rational, objective view as much as possible without succumbing to emotional influence, as I tend to think this is how the unconscious primarily affects us. And since, IMO, emotions aren't rational, it's best to avoid yielding to them as much as possible in most circumstances.

It is in this regard that memes can become dangerous. When the response to them is emotional rather than logical, we can see great harm in the offing. This is what demagogues and radicals hope for; what social manipulators desire; it is what religions seek to establish, and tyrants use for control.

Edit:

I didn't see yours and leon's post before posting this one, but I think the rational, analytical view is exactly how we get "out in front of an occurrence in order to direct it", or disregard it if it is deemed dangerous. But there are many, some listed above, who would sabotage that effort if they can.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:28:20 PM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:

It is in this regard that memes can become dangerous. When the response to them is emotional rather than logical, we can see great harm in the offing. This is what demagogues and radicals hope for; what social manipulators desire; it is what religions seek to establish, and tyrants use for control.

Agreed!

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, June 17, 2018 9:09:40 PM

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Joined: 3/23/2015
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Neurons: 47,708
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Epi, I just watched a rerun "Nature of Things" episode from March 2016 by David Suzuki called "My Brain Made Me Do It". The focus is on whether or not criminals are responsible if their "brains made them do it" but there were interesting points about free will made as well. I hope you don't mind if I digress from memes to free will? I'm sure you have seen similar ideas put forth before but here is the link describing the episode.

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/my-brain-made-me-do-it


They did say that criminals do have to be removed from society but if there are mitigating circumstances because of the brain, sentences by juries and judges may be lighter and there may be a way to correct the behaviour through correcting the brain when the MRI shows what the problem is. Trauma, tumours, coffee, drugs, even prescription drugs such as those used for Parkinson's, and so forth can change the integrity of the brain. They are doing more MRI's on criminals. Also with brain MRIs they were teaching drug addicts how to refuse the craving. It was like biofeedback. (In 2003 I had experimental ADHD biofeedback playing games on a computer while my brain was hooked up to a program. The frequency of two types of brain waves were reversed to what they should have been and at the end of my treatment they were nearly normal. It helped me and several young boys I talked to in the office and so it was too bad that the doctor died before he could complete the study.)

Questions Suzuki asked on the program - So if our brains control our version of reality and we are largely unaware of what our brains are doing, is it us or our brains making the decisions and choices? Do we control our brains or do our brains control us? For instance - Where is your tongue right now? Were you aware of what the brain was doing with it till you read that question?

We may think we are choosing but it is an illusion. For instance think of subliminal messages that influence us. Our brain sees the bias and we may think we are choosing freely but our brains influence our decision because of the bias it saw unconsciously.

Also, we are our biologies and the product of our environments and most of our decisions are actually made by our unconscious brains. They did lab experiments that showed that the brain begins initiating an action before the person has actually decided to take that action.

A book by the same title but opposite conclusion was written in 2010 by Eliezer Sternberg. "My Brain Made Me Do It: The Rise of Neuroscience and the Threat to Moral Responsibility"

https://www.amazon.com/My-Brain-Made-Neuroscience-Responsibility/dp/1616141654

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/my-brain-made-me-do-it/

Sternberg says, "But unless neurologists confirm substantial damage to his (Tiger Woods) frontal lobe, his ability to freely make decisions was intact and he could have taken measures to control his tendencies.  He has free will, and is morally responsible."

However he says with neuroscience learning new concepts the swing will probably be towards thinking there is no free will.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
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