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Roger water’s reaction to syria attack : false propaganda Options
Yarin
Posted: Sunday, April 15, 2018 5:56:27 PM
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Roger water’s reaction to syria attack : false propaganda


Roger Waters, founder of Pink Floyd, criticized East Guta's claims of chemical attack in the Duma district of syria, accusing the White Helmets at the center of the provocation with lying.



Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, April 16, 2018 7:50:48 AM

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What is your post but propaganda?
So far we have learned a lot about false news and misinformation spread by the Soviet style trolls.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, April 16, 2018 9:14:07 AM

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Sadly, all the "news" we see quoted on this forum is propaganda.
It is all slanted by the opinions of the reported, copy-writer, editor and owner of the news-media involved.

Sometimes, it is not so bad - simply the natural fact that each person has a viewpoint - and they're rarely the same.
Sometimes - as with the 'news' quoted by Yarin and Buzzito, among others - it is deliberate falsification by one of these methods
- totally false data, lies
- rumour reported as 'fact'
- deliberately omitted facts (reporting only one side of a story)
- deliberately mis-interpreted statistics.

If someone has to resort to political black-propaganda cartoons like the ones above, there is something wrong with their philosophy.

1939



2018





Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Monday, April 16, 2018 9:39:50 AM

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I would say political cartoons are as bad as simplistic political slogans - they deliberately seek to over-simplify otherwise complex matters. They never help, as far as I can see, - even less so the very side they are supposed to "represent".

Using the proposed example, Mr. Yarin, if you are against Saturday strikes against Syria then how is your post helpful to make your point? I daresay people who are relevent to any decision making are adult enough not to be convinced by cartoons. You have to make arguments to convince them. And what these cartoons do is just provoke emotional negative reaction, which only makes any understanding harder to achieve. So unless one's actual objective is exactly that, such things are completely counter-productive.
towan52
Posted: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:55:39 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
I would say political cartoons are as bad as simplistic political slogans - they deliberately seek to over-simplify otherwise complex matters. They never help, as far as I can see, - even less so the very side they are supposed to "represent".

Using the proposed example, Mr. Yarin, if you are against Saturday strikes against Syria then how is your post helpful to make your point? I daresay people who are relevent to any decision making are adult enough not to be convinced by cartoons. You have to make arguments to convince them. And what these cartoons do is just provoke emotional negative reaction, which only makes any understanding harder to achieve. So unless one's actual objective is exactly that, such things are completely counter-productive.


Very good points Kirill Vorobyov. Just to be on the safe side, you had better wear protective gloves when opening any doors! Whistle

"Today I was a hero. I rescued some beer that was trapped in a bottle"
redgriffin
Posted: Monday, April 16, 2018 11:21:27 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
I would say political cartoons are as bad as simplistic political slogans - they deliberately seek to over-simplify otherwise complex matters. They never help, as far as I can see, - even less so the very side they are supposed to "represent".

Using the proposed example, Mr. Yarin, if you are against Saturday strikes against Syria then how is your post helpful to make your point? I daresay people who are relevent to any decision making are adult enough not to be convinced by cartoons. You have to make arguments to convince them. And what these cartoons do is just provoke emotional negative reaction, which only makes any understanding harder to achieve. So unless one's actual objective is exactly that, such things are completely counter-productive.


I would say that political cartoons are criticized if they don't support your views. Mostly they are exactly what they appear to be statements on the world events of the day.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 7:16:09 AM

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Very good points Kirill Vorobyov. Just to be on the safe side, you had better wear protective gloves when opening any doors! Whistle [/quote]

Was this supposed to be some sort of a pungent remark?
I didn't get the idea, sorry.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 7:21:07 AM

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redgriffin wrote:

I would say that political cartoons are criticized if they don't support your views. Mostly they are exactly what they appear to be statements on the world events of the day.


They never really support any view. They seek to incite waves of opposite emotions in groups of people with different views, making any undertsanding only harder to achieve.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 8:34:40 AM

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Yes - propaganda in all types (but propaganda cartoons in particular) does nothing except inflame hatred.

Those three I showed above are typical.

One equates all Jews with spiders.
One equates all western leaders with cannibals.
One equates all Muslims with terrorists.

No statement like "All _____(insert race or religion) are ____ (insert hateful object)" is true.
This type of cartoon is simply hate-talk put into pictures.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Y111
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 8:53:35 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

One equates all western leaders with cannibals.

Why all? There are only three of them in the picture.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 9:04:23 AM

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Y111 wrote:
Drag0nspeaker wrote:

One equates all western leaders with cannibals.

Why all? There are only three of them in the picture.


Again, each of them had their reasons. Picturing them in this way doesn't help anything. Today you picture political leaders of three major coutries as cannibals. Tomorrow they will want to retaliate and publish a picture of Russians eating Syrian children.

I mean, this is all bullshit. Trading insults instead of serious talk. It's just not the right way to handle things.
Y111
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 11:02:45 AM
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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:

Again, each of them had their reasons. Picturing them in this way doesn't help anything. Today you picture political leaders of three major coutries as cannibals. Tomorrow they will want to retaliate and publish a picture of Russians eating Syrian children.

I mean, this is all bullshit. Trading insults instead of serious talk. It's just not the right way to handle things.

Reasons? Cannibals have their reasons too, don't they? ;)

I was just curious why Drag0nspeaker had said "all" when there were only three. Maybe he simply expressed his own opinion about western leaders, who knows? The cartoon might have been just a trigger. :)
towan52
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 11:34:47 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:

Very good points Kirill Vorobyov. Just to be on the safe side, you had better wear protective gloves when opening any doors! Whistle


Was this supposed to be some sort of a pungent remark?
I didn't get the idea, sorry.[/quote]

When certain people upset certain people, the second lot of certain people get certain other people to smear a poisonous nerve-agent (novichok) on a certain door handle.

"Today I was a hero. I rescued some beer that was trapped in a bottle"
Y111
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:25:08 PM
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towan52 wrote:
"Today I was a hero. I rescued some beer that was trapped in a bottle"

If you were a hero, you'd have rescued some vodka, starichok. ;)
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:55:23 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Sadly, all the "news" we see quoted on this forum is propaganda.


I agree with this, but the statement hints that there are news sources that we do not see quoted on this forum that are not propaganda, and I disagree with that. If all of the news quoted on this forum is propaganda to some extent, then all news anywhere is propaganda to some extent. We are just saying that personal perspective, distance from the story, cultural bias all guarantee some level of propaganda in news reporting.

But that complicates the discussion because then we have to decide how much and what kind of propaganda is bad.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:13:52 PM

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I said "all western leaders" because the cartoon looks like a sort of 'generic' picture.

One character has the hair of Trump - though I don't know who the face is meant to be.
One is a mixture of Frau Merkel and Mrs May.
I've no idea who the other is - it just looks like "a person who doesn't wear a beard and turban".
I doubt that most people in Turkey would even recognise as much as that about the three cartoon characters.

The other cartoons only show one Jew and one Muslim - so what?

************
Progpen wrote:
But that complicates the discussion because then we have to decide how much and what kind of propaganda is bad.

Yes - all news is 'slanted' - as I said before (by the personal views of the reporter, copy-writer, editor - even the newspaper owner).

This can be offset by reading news from several sources - with different viewpoints - particularly exterior viewpoints (UK newspapers seem to have a more objective grasp of American news than US papers do. Canadian newspapers seem to have a more objective grasp of UK news than UK papers do).

What is totally useless and actually destructive is deliberate lies, mis-reporting, lies by omission of relevant facts, mis-interpretation of statistics etc.
The purpose of this is ONLY to inflame hatred - and is often aimed at whole populations when (possibly) there are a few real criminals who should be pointed out.
They are actually sheltered by the propaganda which falsely labels the whole population as evil.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Y111
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:56:20 PM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
One character has the hair of Trump - though I don't know who the face is meant to be.
One is a mixture of Frau Merkel and Mrs May.
I've no idea who the other is - it just looks like "a person who doesn't wear a beard and turban".
I doubt that most people in Turkey would even recognise as much as that about the three cartoon characters.

They are apparently Trump, May and Macron. The leaders of the three nations that participated in the recent attack on Syria. I can't speak for the Turks but I recognized them immediately.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
The other cartoons only show one Jew and one Muslim - so what?

I can't recognize those, to be sure. :)
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 2:35:59 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
This can be offset by reading news from several sources - with different viewpoints - particularly exterior viewpoints (UK newspapers seem to have a more objective grasp of American news than US papers do. Canadian newspapers seem to have a more objective grasp of UK news than UK papers do).


I agree completely and have been saying this for quite some time. It's great to see the idea "out in the wild" as I don't think it's very popular among consumers of news.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, April 19, 2018 5:53:15 AM

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Y111 wrote:
Reasons? Cannibals have their reasons too, don't they? ;)



I never said "good reasons", I said "reasons" Angel

Anyway, I want to join Drago and Progpen on that important point of access to competing sources of information, including foreign sources.

Besides providing the consumer with a more balanced and true picture of events, such access also has a disciplining effect on the media themselves. Since what they like to do is to tell different stories to people in different countries, thus provoking and "managing" conflicts at their will (spreading "manageable chaos"). It would not be as easy if more media, especially TV, operated across borders.

My immediate concern in this regard is what we hear about Brits considering banning (de-licensing) the RT in the UK. Not only do I feel sorry for the fact that British people will have less diverse choice of sources of information, but I am even more concerned about our own guys here, who are sure to push for retaliatory measures. So I won't be able to watch BBC, if they go with it. Not that I think that BBC is any less politically biased that Russia24, for example, but I do appreciate access to that source.

"Devide and rule" is their motto...


Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, April 19, 2018 7:06:34 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
Not that I think that BBC is any less politically biased that Russia24, for example, but I do appreciate access to that source.

"Divide and rule" is their motto...

Even within the UK . . .

At the time when the referendum (concerning Scotland possibly moving out from under English rule - sorry, that should read 'UK rule') the BBC and some newspapers did a front-page, top-priority story about the oil industry in Britain. Most of the oil comes from wells in Scottish territorial waters, and is processed in Scottish ports.

The Scottish channels (BBC Scotland and BBC Alba) had the story that oil was running out, the industry was dying . . .
designed to persuade Scots that an independent Scotland would go bankrupt.

The channels for England and Wales ran the story of highest-ever profits from oil, and how the industry was going to be the saviour of the economy.
Designed to persuade English people that they would lose a lot of money if Scotland were to become independent.

Both stories have their truths and their falsehoods.

*****************
When a site/news company/newspaper relies on total rhetoric and absolutely no real news it's time to give up on them (there seem to be an abundance of these in the USA - both ultra-right-wing Republican and hard-nosed Democrat ones). There are some in the UK, but most at least give the news (then give a heavily-slanted opinion about it).



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, April 19, 2018 9:02:30 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:


Even within the UK . . .



I see. But within the UK I assume you can have access to all these channels you mention, so you can compare and take note of the differences in stories each of them is telling.

That's exactly my point - I think it would help a lot if there was more overlap in TV coverage internationally. So whenever there seems to be a problem that involves two or more countries, people can see the picture of events as it is presented on the other side(s), too.

This would limit the room for sheer lies and help to filter out at least such disagreements that are quite artficial, i.e. based on lies and provocations.

Then of course there may remain disagreements of substence, i.e. where actual national interests may come into conflict. Those will still have to be addressed, but even there - more numerous and broader channels of communication would be favourable for early and peaceful resolution.

Just like nations send diplomatic envoys and missions on the reciprocal basis, I think it is important to maintain similar reciprocal exchanges in the area of information and media. At the moment it doesn't workthis way, as far as I can see.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, April 19, 2018 9:15:38 AM

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towan52 wrote:

When certain people upset certain people, the second lot of certain people get certain other people to smear a poisonous nerve-agent (novichok) on a certain door handle.


Ah, that...
I think I can do without gloves...Think As a mortal man I don't expect to be fully protected from whatever some jerks can think of doing, anyway. And hardly a man of any sense can hope to never upset anybody, either. So I am prepared to take that natural risk.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, April 19, 2018 10:20:34 AM

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You sound very philosophical! Applause
If you try to live without EVER upsetting anyone, I don't think you will ever do anything!

You are right.
Within the UK, it is possible to compare news - but it takes some effort and most people don't bother.
Your normal socialistic working man reads the left-wing rag (or the Star, which has no news at all - the front-page headlines are protests about which character in Coronation Street is going to die next).
Your normal capitalistic stock-market gambler reads the right-wing rag.

That disparity in stories about oil was really only noticed by someone who travelled from one country to another and watched both shows (or bought the same paper in London and Edinburgh and saw different headlines). You can't see the English version of BBC 1 in Scotland, and you can't see the Scottish version in England.

It is a truism - "When in doubt, communicate."
There is also an axiom - when two people, groups or nations are arguing and fighting and can't seem to resolve the differences, there's a hidden third party lying to both sides about the other, causing trouble. The media, even if not deliberately BEING the 'third party', often act as a channel for these lies.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Yarin
Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 8:28:35 PM
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Hi Drag0nspeaker,

Those three presidents attacked Syria because of lies they invented. They pretend they acted to protect civilians but now they say nothing and do nothing about israeli atrocities against palestinian civilians. They just shut their mouths up, to suport israel to do even more and more crimes.
No cridibility to those who always ignore israeli occupation of Palestine and try to treat equally both sides ( the occupation itself and people under occupation)
Yarin
Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 8:43:52 PM
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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:

I would say political cartoons are as bad as simplistic political slogans - they deliberately seek to over-simplify otherwise complex matters. They never help, as far as I can see, - even less so the very side they are supposed to "represent".

Using the proposed example, Mr. Yarin, if you are against Saturday strikes against Syria then how is your post helpful to make your point? I daresay people who are relevent to any decision making are adult enough not to be convinced by cartoons. You have to make arguments to convince them. And what these cartoons do is just provoke emotional negative reaction, which only makes any understanding harder to achieve. So unless one's actual objective is exactly that, such things are completely counter-productive.



I agree.
I'm against Saturday strikes against Syria. And those 3 presidents just pretend they are very kind toward civilians. But they were never never never kind to kinds of civilians like Palestinians.
Yarin
Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2018 3:22:16 PM
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Talk only about something criticising the Israeli occupation of Palestine and everyone shut up, and forget everything having to do with human rights.
For example Dragonspeaker said many things about cartoons I posted, but nothing about Naqba day and israeli bombardment on civilians in the other thread.


“The omission of Palestine is a grievous insult to the people of Palestine and undermines the efforts of the millions of people who are involved in the campaign to secure Palestinian independence and freedom from Israeli occupation and oppression,” reads the petition.


Yarin
Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2018 3:47:07 PM
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This is the OT.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iu0wCIsSJ8


Roger Waters, founder of Pink Floyd, criticized East Guta's claims of chemical attack in the Duma district of syria, accusing the White Helmets at the center of the provocation with lying.
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