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A short English word for German "knee-length/knickerbocker-style lederhosen"? Options
Lasse Carlsson
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:00:46 AM

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Does anyone know a short English word for these kind of lederhosen?




How would you call them? I guess you can't just say lederhosen.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:07:17 AM

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I think there isn't one. Lederhosen is also used in English, meaning leather shorts or breeches.

What about Bundhosen or Kniebundhosen? No idea ;-)


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Lasse Carlsson
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:20:37 AM

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Kiitos Jyrkää.

Problem is that probably no one in the US or UK would understand Bundhosen or Kniebundhosen while the word lederhosen may already have entered the English language like angst or hinterland.

Of course these terms are the correct German word for these kind. Every German speaking person understands Lederkniebundhosen or Kniebundlederhosen.

Yet I doubt any Englishman or American would.
thar
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:42:09 AM

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I would call them britches or knee britches.

The reason for the lack of a modern word is probably because they are not a standard item of modern clothing.

Knickerbockers are a bit more voluminous.
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:48:26 AM

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Lasse Carlsson wrote:
I guess you can't just say lederhosen.

https://www.walmart.com/search/?query=lederhosen


აბა ყვავებს ვინ დაიჭერს, კარგო? გალიაში ბულბულები ზიან.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 5:24:42 AM

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thar,

breeches or britches or breeks can be made of any fabric, not only leather.




In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 6:12:44 AM

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We use lederhosen and would probably figure out the other two since they end in hosen. Is that where the word hose comes from I wonder?

Of course we may know that because there are many people with German heritage in Canada. Kitchener, Ontario was called Berlin until the war. My next door neighbors when we lived there were German - the teens babysat for us. And there are many German dance halls there with the Oktoberfest held each fall being second only to Germany's festivals. Everybody used to get dressed up in lederhosen and dirndil skirts for the big parade - lots of beer and ein prosits followed. We've been gone from there many years but I think they still do it - one big beer bash.( I know I've said this before a long time ago on the forum.)

A man must be excessively stupid, as well as uncharitable, who believes there is no virtue but on his own side. Addison
thar
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 7:53:15 AM

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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
thar,

breeches or britches or breeks can be made of any fabric, not only leather.





True. Yes, I was going by the image which appeared to show fabric in one (although the OP did say lederhosen I wasn't sure if that was essential.)

Leather britches, then. Whistle


Or moleskin breeks.
(You know how many moles you have to skin to make a pair of trousers? Lots! And all those seams! Silenced Whistle )
Just kidding, it's cotton.
towan52
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 11:14:29 AM

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Moles are made from cotton? ... Whistle

"Today I was a hero. I rescued some beer that was trapped in a bottle"
Lasse Carlsson
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 2:00:56 PM

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Thank you all and Danke schoen for your contributions.
Lasse Carlsson
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 2:42:52 PM

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thar wrote:
I would call them britches or knee britches.

The reason for the lack of a modern word is probably because they are not a standard item of modern clothing.

Knickerbockers are a bit more voluminous.


You might be just right, thar. These trousers are certainly not quite en vogue anymore.

As for the difference between kneebritches and knickerbockers let me show what I would say:

These are britches or breeches >>>



... made of leather >>>



Unfortunately they are too easily associated with these worn by SS soldiers




So I wouldn't want to call them that, especially as they don't resemble the lederhosen I meant.

>>>




... which are not as wide above midthigh, even though they as well are fastened at the knee by a leather buckle. They are much straighter and don't bulge as the riding breeches/britches.

>>>




Now for the term knickerbockers.

These trousers - in my humble opinion - are called knickerbockers. Here we have them worn by kids, which used to be quite commonly worn by younger boys in the US until they advanced to longs. That fashion was quite common until the 1930s I believe.





... or for grown-ups:




The knickerbocker trousers are as well gathered below the knee, but are much wider and fall over the knee-gathering.

Sooo ... both types of trousers don't quite resemble the type of lederhosen I meant. At most I would say:

Knickerbocker style lederhosen or breeches-style lederhosen, but I'm not content with that at all for the differences in type of trousers and for breeches for the above mentioned reason about the connection between lederhosen and WW II (SS-uniform).



I guess, I'm not quite sure yet which term could be appropriate.



Again thanks for all your contributions.







Romany
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 2:52:21 PM
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Hi Lasse -

I was just going to add that yes, lederhosen has embedded itself into the English language along with many other German words. But I think this is a bit of a trend:- kimono, kilt, pyjamas, etc. Though none of these are regarded as National dress, they are associated indelibly with their country of origin. (And, as Thar said, who else wears 'knee-length/knickerbocker-style lederhosen' today?).

Hope - yep. That's where 'hose' came from: it was 'hosen' (plural) in English too, until around the 16th century. (We'd already pinched it way back when!)
thar
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 3:39:13 PM

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Breeches don't have to flair out (except in comedy sketches).

To me it implies a straight leg. How tight depends on the use it is intended for.

Lasse Carlsson
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 3:55:06 PM

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thar wrote:
Breeches don't have to flair out (except in comedy sketches).

To me it implies a straight leg. How tight depends on the use it is intended for.



Thanks for that. My bad, you proved me wrong.
Lasse Carlsson
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:04:11 PM

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Romany wrote:

Hi Lasse -

I was just going to add that yes, lederhosen has embedded itself into the English language along with many other German words. But I think this is a bit of a trend:- kimono, kilt, pyjamas, etc. Though none of these are regarded as National dress, they are associated indelibly with their country of origin. (And, as Thar said, who else wears 'knee-length/knickerbocker-style lederhosen' today?).

Hope - yep. That's where 'hose' came from: it was 'hosen' (plural) in English too, until around the 16th century. (We'd already pinched it way back when!)


THX, Romany.

So... what would leder hose for an Englishman mean?

A (garden-) hose made of leather instead of rubber?
Lasse Carlsson
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:17:58 PM

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I have to admit that maybe I want to be a little too meticulous.

Well, I heard that German translations of an English text often tend to be double in length. Some Germans tend to be very exact but lengthy ...

mactoria
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 10:13:29 PM
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Knickers (or in this case, leather knickers) comes to mind. And though men may not wear knickers much if at all, knickers are an on again-off again style for women, at least in the US. Usually end at or just below the knee, worn with boots mostly, though they can be worn with bare legs or long stockings. I realize in some countries 'knickers' is the name used for underwear, but it's a pretty uncommon word for underwear in the US where it does refer usually to short knee pants.
Romany
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 4:56:16 AM
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I'm so sorry, Mactoria, but not being American, your phrase that "knickers are an on again-off again style for women" made me snort my coffee all over my keyboard!!
almo 1
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 5:29:07 AM
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<< an on again-off again style for >>




That's a useful expression.

I bookmarked it (in my head).



IMcRout
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 5:29:44 AM

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I guess it's hard to get one's knickers in a twist when they're made of leather.Think

I totally take back all those times I didn't want to nap when I was younger. (Anon)
Orson Burleigh
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 6:10:59 AM

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Though this is not likely to usefully illuminate the subject, the old Norman sobriquet Curthose (meaning short breeches) might be considered.

As a nickname, Curthose is most associated with Robert Curthose, the oldest son of William I (William the Conqueror).
Think It seems unlikely that any particular preference for short breeches was responsible for Robert's being passed over for succession to the English crown (Robert Curthose's two younger brothers William II aka William Rufus, then Henry I aka Henry Beauclerc followed William I).
Lasse Carlsson
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 4:35:28 PM

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mactoria wrote:
Knickers (or in this case, leather knickers) comes to mind. And though men may not wear knickers much if at all, knickers are an on again-off again style for women, at least in the US. Usually end at or just below the knee, worn with boots mostly, though they can be worn with bare legs or long stockings. I realize in some countries 'knickers' is the name used for underwear, but it's a pretty uncommon word for underwear in the US where it does refer usually to short knee pants.


It seems to me that the term leather knickers would be quite acceptable for an US audience, but not for the British speaking world.

To avoid that maybe leather knickerbockers would suite a worldwide audience. Or even knickerbocker lederhosen?

Or do knickerbockers mean underwear in BE as well?
Lasse Carlsson
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 5:13:18 PM

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Orson Burleigh wrote:
Though this is not likely to usefully illuminate the subject, the old Norman sobriquet Curthose (meaning short breeches) might be considered.

As a nickname, Curthose is most associated with Robert Curthose, the oldest son of William I (William the Conqueror).
Think It seems unlikely that any particular preference for short breeches was responsible for Robert's being passed over for succession to the English crown (Robert Curthose's two younger brothers William II aka William Rufus, then Henry I aka Henry Beauclerc followed William I).


That's an interesting word. Never heard of that expression for knee-pants, neither did I hear about the man. So I looked him up in wikipedia only to lern that his German name is Robert Kurzhose. You figure out what that translates to, don't you?
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 8:24:27 PM

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Lasse Carlsson wrote:
mactoria wrote:
Knickers (or in this case, leather knickers) comes to mind. And though men may not wear knickers much if at all, knickers are an on again-off again style for women, at least in the US. Usually end at or just below the knee, worn with boots mostly, though they can be worn with bare legs or long stockings. I realize in some countries 'knickers' is the name used for underwear, but it's a pretty uncommon word for underwear in the US where it does refer usually to short knee pants.


It seems to me that the term leather knickers would be quite acceptable for an US audience, but not for the British speaking world.

To avoid that maybe leather knickerbockers would suite a worldwide audience. Or even knickerbocker lederhosen?

Or do knickerbockers mean underwear in BE as well?


No you would be fine knickerbockers don't mean underwear in BE.

It does make me think of ice cream though.Whistle

This is a Knickerbocker glory.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knickerbocker_glory

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
Orson Burleigh
Posted: Friday, February 16, 2018 8:27:20 AM

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Lasse Carlsson wrote:
'Curthose'

That's an interesting word. Never heard of that expression for knee-pants, neither did I hear about the man. So I looked him up in wikipedia only to lern that his German name is Robert Kurzhose. You figure out what that translates to, don't you?


The Kurzhose / Curthose convergence leads me to speculate that West Germanic/North Germanic words might have been used at a higher rate in 11th century Norman French, in contrast to what might well have been a rather more Latin-based vocabulary in the main stream French of Isle de France (Paris).

Think I can conjure a sort of misty mental picture of the sea-faring folk from all sides of the North Sea, swapping and sharing West Germanic/North Germanic words and idioms across that sea and up and down the watery channels and river highways that connect that sea to the outer ocean and the settled lands.

Returning to Robert of the Short-Britches: Some writers suggest that the nick name was a derogatory reference to the shortness of Robert's legs. It may be that William the Conqueror's younger sons, both of whom became King, enjoyed a height advantage over their frustrated elder brother.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, February 19, 2018 6:08:15 PM

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Romany wrote:
I'm so sorry, Mactoria, but not being American, your phrase that "knickers are an on again-off again style for women" made me snort my coffee all over my keyboard!!

I almost choked . . .

In MY vocabulary -
'knickers' are what a woman wears under a skirt - from 'panties' to ones which reach almost down to the knees.

"Knickerbockers" are the things you see some golfers wearing - very baggy, but sometimes tapered in to the knee.

"Trousers" and "pants" are synonymous and are just the generic words for anything from a schoolboy's grey flannel shorts to normal men's or women's wear (from jeans to tuxedo - they're all covered by these terms).

"Britches" are the ones which are not particularly baggy - just normal trousers, but are only knee-length or a little more, and have a buckle or tie. The photo is late 1800s in Newcastle.


"Moleskin pants" are the uniform of the nineteenth-century coal-miner (northern English) and were often britches for 'best' and full-length (to protect the knees) for working "down t'pit".



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
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