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1812 War in North America. Options
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 4:36:37 PM

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Most, if not all, U.S. citizens think this war was caused by Britain attempting to win back it's lost 13 colonies, whilst most Brits believe it was a U.S. attempt at kicking the Brits off the American continent. Which is correct?

Edit: I don't want to get into who won or lost.

I remember, therefore I am.
towan52
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 4:51:44 PM

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It was because America sailors objected to being forcibly transferred from their ships to British naval ships because Britain was losing a war avec le Français. Whistle Seems reasonable to me!

"Today I was a hero. I rescued some beer that was trapped in a bottle"
NKM
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 4:51:59 PM

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Who really knows?

Forgive and forget!

Parpar1836
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 6:04:54 PM
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As I understand it, the prime culprit wasn't the British or the Americans, but Napoléon, whose ambition to invade Britain led to the beefing up of its navy, the impressing (forcible recruitment) of civilians, and the British navy's ultimate impressing of American sailors (as towan52 notes).

Forgive and forget? We can forgive, but forget? Tall order there. Look what the Brits did to the White House!

On the other hand, during World War I, the Americans tactfully omitted the third stanza of "The Star-Spangled Banner" when they were alongside British soldiers, since it describes the British invaders in pejorative terms (e.g., "their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution").
taurine
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 6:19:44 PM

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I agree with towan52.
Some time ago I watched on Discovery Channel or History Channel documentary movie about 1812 war.

J'ai perdu mes amis en Afrique durant la dernière semaine de 2017
Hope123
Posted: Monday, January 29, 2018 9:13:17 PM

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Towan and Parpar are both correct re the causes. The real war of 1812 was in Europe and the one in America was secondary after their resources were freed up as far as Britain was concerned. The Americans had also invaded Canada in 1775 and already had their independence in 1776.

On August 24 in 1814, during the War of 1812 between the United States and England, British troops (possibly with Canadian soldiers is the unproven myth) entered Washington, D.C. and burned the White House in retaliation for the American attack, capture, burning, and looting of the city of York, now Toronto, in Ontario, Canada, in June 1812, and the burning of Newark now called Niagara-on-the-Lake.

As a colony of Great Britain, Canada was swept into the fray and was invaded several times by the Americans but thanks to the Indians as they were called then, Canada and Britain stopped Canada from becoming American. The boundaries stayed much the same and the Indians were ultimately the ones who lost.

Taurine, I saw a documentary too, probably the same one.

War is war. We can all forgive but not forget so it doesn't happen again. Canada and the US have been reasonably friendly since then.

http://clioscurrent.com/blog/2015/7/13/burningwashington


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 2:31:08 AM

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To be honest I think most Britsh people don't know of the War of 1812 at all.

The members of this forum may be different but we are quite a self selecting group.

I lack the imagination for a witty signature.
thar
Posted: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:01:49 AM

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Yes, 1812 and I think Russia (but as a French horn player I am self-selecting to like TchaikovskyWhistle ), and if most British people know anything about that time, it will be 1805 Trafalgar, 1815 Waterloo, so assume Britain was too busy fighting Napoleon in Europe for much of that time.

Those are the names that get fixed, remembered.

No overtures celebrating burning Washington, no squares or stations named after its generals.
The famous painting of this is in America, not the National Gallery in Trafalgar Square in London. Yes? Think

Anything in the Americas? Wolfe, Quebec, Seven Years'War. (Dying in battle is a good way to go out without your reputation being tarnished!Whistle - Britain loves a heroic loser, or failing that a dead victor!)
Louisiana purchase (war is expensive)
Haiti revolution (one good thing that came from all this)

Like Sarries says, - proximity, effect, pride or personalities - I don't think this ticks many boxes for British cultural memories.


England/Britain has been fighting with the French since 1066. The blip of two horrific world wars against the Germans doesn't change that, when French fishermen start blockading the ferries again. d'oh!
And America - well, lost the colony of course - a bit embarrassing now, but best thing in the long run. Any other skirmishes, - well, nothing to be proud of there, so best forgotten, eh?

(You guys know my style, right? - not serious, just playing with ideas, devil's advocate, no offence if you are serious).

And as wars go, this one does seem one of the more civilised!

Quote:
The day after the destruction of the White House, Rear Admiral Cockburn entered the building of the D.C. newspaper, the National Intelligencer, intending to burn it down. However, several women persuaded him not to because they were afraid the fire would spread to their neighboring houses. Cockburn wanted to destroy the newspaper because its reporters had written so negatively about him, branding him "The Ruffian." Instead, he ordered his troops to tear the building down brick by brick, and ordered all the "C" type destroyed "so that the rascals can have no further means of abusing my name."[22]


jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 7:56:06 AM

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The Louisiana Purchase was definitely the best thing for everyone, because Napoleon would never have sold it to the British so what would have become of that vast territory? Could a victorious Britain have claimed it as we claimed German Territory in Africa after WW1? Could the U.S. have become the superpower it is without it, I wonder?

I remember, therefore I am.
thar
Posted: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 8:20:44 AM

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I guess it would have stayed French, wouldn't it! No reason for Britain to claim it, so either it would have fought for independence (seems most likely, but interesting to think what kind of society it would have created) or stayed as part of France, like the Caribbean Islands, French Guiana, and StP et M in Canada. Interesting to see if it would have influenced Quebec to push harder for independence, if a 'French nation' were there across the whole of the Midwest.
Nouvelle France would be the powerhouse with the oil, the coal and the grain! Probably be a civil war though, between Quebec and Lousiana, given their different backgrounds!
Whistle

And, post-Katrina and Deepwater Horizon, does the population of the state of Louisiana feel that 'American'? Think
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 2:08:01 PM
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I love speculating on "what if"s.

I've a book I'm dying to read - also set in America - in which Germany had won the war!

Edited to add: Thar -

Yes, 1812 history-wise is only significant to me because of Napolean. But, just hearing that date, in isolation, makes the drumbeats explode and the symbols to clash; as my brain automatically tacks the word "Overture" onto .
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:02:37 PM

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Interesting speculations.

I wrote my post referring to Canada when what I should have said was British Colonies or what was Canada at that point because Canada did not become a country until 1867.

Probably Canadians are the ones who have the greatest feelings about this war. That time was when Canada first started to get her identity and she has fought any idea of becoming the next state or becoming like Americans ever since.

We had celebrations and re-enactments of the war of 1812 in the Americas all along the southern Ontario border in 2012. (I think that was the date. Can't remember but it seems about that long ago.) I was at the one in Burlington. Uniforms, smoke from muskets, and knives with special spirals so if used in an abdomen the opponent would die later if not immediately. You can read about it or see movies but the re-enactments really gave me an idea of what war was like then.


Edited - strangely enough it was the slow post that actually caused the 1812 war in the Americas. The Americans had won their point but the mail didn't get to them in time.

"This dispute over maritime rights might have been resolved with diplomacy; in fact, the new British government of Lord Liverpool rescinded the orders-in-council a few days before the US declared war, though the news hadn't reached America in time. Moreover, not all Americans wanted war with Great Britain, notably the merchants of New England and New York."

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/war-of-1812/





The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
thar
Posted: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:31:16 PM

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Brings new meaning to "it's in the post"!
Yes, I can imagine fighting your own war does change a colony's perception of itself.

What Rom, no cannons?

(I never played it with real cannons, unfortunately (Huh, some people, health and safety mad! It is quite a big school hall! Whistle )

But an overexcited percussion section have a good go at it!

Romany
Posted: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 6:03:19 AM
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God yeah - those recordings which actually hear "the cannonballs roar" are very stirring. But, even without them, I find that this is one piece of music one absolutely cannot listen to just sitting in a chair. It's such a "big" piece that one (well, this "one" anyway)absolutely *has to* get up and wave your arms about and stamp your feet and...but I guess that doesn't paint me as the ideal person to go to a concert with, does it?
thar
Posted: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 6:14:24 AM

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Absolutely! Applause

It's illogical,isn't it.

Some music you are expected to dance along with, or wave your arms,, or clap or sing, others close your eyes or look at the stars - but just because it is labelled 'classical' you are suddenly supposed to sit quietly?




Nah! Shame on you
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 7:02:35 PM
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Exactly!!

I think that's one of the reasons I absolutely love the idea of the Last Night of the Proms. If the 1812 was played you could feel perfectly free to conduct-along with a rubber chicken if that's your wont.

Edited to add: I feel the same about Art. Why must I talk in hushed tones of reverence in front of a canvas that has no depth or significance or interest simply because the artist is "important"? A crap painting is a crap painting whether it's by Degas or Mr. Doodle, to my simple mind.

I do so resent being *told* how I should react to either music or art.Not talking
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Thursday, February 1, 2018 3:49:48 AM

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I wonder what they are listening ;-)




In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, February 1, 2018 9:34:52 PM

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War with America in 1812?

This is one of my favourite versions of 1812 finale.
You have to watch it on a big screen and full volume, though.
Definitely not for sitting quietly and calmly appreciating!
(click on the image)



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
IMcRout
Posted: Friday, February 2, 2018 5:53:25 AM

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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
I wonder what they are listening ;-)




I suppose John Cage,4'33. Think

I totally take back all those times I didn't want to nap when I was younger. (Anon)
Romany
Posted: Friday, February 2, 2018 11:41:33 AM
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Thanks, Drago - from there I disappeared down several different paths as I kept seeing more and more favourite pieces displayed!

One of the wonderful things about the Hong Kong venue(yet never included in tourist information) is that it is right down on the Harbour. And that, whether it's a visiting orchestra or the HKPS, the whole exterior side of the concert hall becomes a giant TV screen. So you can wander on down, settle yourself on a patch of grass and both see and listen to the whole thing absolute free of charge. When the Vienna Philharmonic came we were even provided with plastic rectangles - beautifully decorated - to sit on in case the damp seeped through.

One of the very typical Chinese things is for middle-aged to elderly Chinese couples to get up and unselfconsciously dance together in parks. Imagine whirling around the most brilliantly-lit harbour in the world, swirling away to a Vienese walse played by one of the most renowned orchestras in the world!

Magic - Hong Kong style.
almo 1
Posted: Friday, February 2, 2018 6:19:55 PM
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Mesmerizing!





John Cage 4'33”










NKM
Posted: Friday, February 2, 2018 11:26:29 PM

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Romany wrote:
Yes, 1812 history-wise is only significant to me because of Napolean. But, just hearing that date, in isolation, makes the drumbeats explode and the symbols to clash ….

══════════════════════════════════════════════

Hi, Romany -

This evening I decided to revisit this thread, and I was struck by your turn of phrase about the clashing symbols.

I immediately thought, "Of course she meant cymbals!"

Then I thought a bit more, and decided it wasn't a misspelling or a malapropism at all. Considering that it came on the heels of some very interesting discussions of what 1812 means to some other folks (including Thar's exposé), I was forced to conclude that it was not an error, but rather a clever and quite appropriate pun.

Well done!

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