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Sophia Alexandrova
Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2017 8:25:03 AM

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Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
Hi!

Could you please advise if it is possible to say "from the-thick-of-it perspective"? What I want to say is that the described perception of the event is vivid and provided by the person who took part in it.

Thanks!
NKM
Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2017 12:37:23 PM

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That doesn't feel quite right. I think it should be "from an in-the-thick-of-it perspective".

Romany
Posted: Saturday, October 21, 2017 1:38:22 PM
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Yes, you could!

It's actually a very good way to form an unusual and very colloquial description. It works very well indeed - not least because of the pleasing way the number of syllables in "thick/of/it matches "per/spec/tive. This kind of syncopation is not the sort of thing one learns, it's something we instinctively use: the rhythm of any language.
Sophia Alexandrova
Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 5:10:51 AM

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Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
Thanks! :)
Sanmayce
Posted: Friday, October 27, 2017 2:58:23 PM

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Location: Sofia, Sofia-Capital, Bulgaria
Sophia Alexandrova wrote:
Hi!

Could you please advise if it is possible to say "from the-thick-of-it perspective"? What I want to say is that the described perception of the event is vivid and provided by the person who took part in it.

Thanks!


IMHO, you cannot.
NKM seems caught the missing 'in/into', without it, what is the meaning/role of 'the-thick-of-it'?
Only the 'an' looks as an overkill, the 'the' would also, no?
Yet, let us try to legitimatize it.
First, shouldn't it be "from the-thick-of-it perspective"?
If you take the similar idiom "in-the-loop" and kill the "in" you have "from the-loop perspective" which entirely fails. My coinage is, "from in-the-loop perspective", as for your case - "from in-the-thick-of-it perspective".

So, my point, don't kill the preposition, you might find useful for such coinages other adpositional phrases:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adpositional_phrase#Prepositional_phrases

Consider example 'c':
c. David walked on top of the building.

Following your logic to omit the 'in', inhere the 'on', we end up with the abomination:
"from the-top-of-the-building perspective"
instead of ending up with:
"from on-top-of-the-building perspective".


He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Romany
Posted: Saturday, October 28, 2017 6:15:55 AM
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Sanmayce - I'm sorry, but I stick to my guns here.

English is an expressive language which allows one the freedom to "invent" words or phrases. Creativity in expressing oneself - as long as it makes sense, which this does - is a sign of a good grasp of (many) languages. The preposition here is unimportant as it makes sense either way.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, October 28, 2017 7:55:50 PM

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I feel the same.

"The thick of it" is the place.

One could see things from the perspective of the balcony - from a balcony perspective.
One could see things from the perspective of the thick of it - from the thick-of-it perspective.

I wouldn't find NKM's "an in-the-thick-of-it perspective" wrong either.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
Sanmayce
Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 10:52:22 PM

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Location: Sofia, Sofia-Capital, Bulgaria
Interesting, haven't expected such nonrestrictive i.e. loose "style" Think
My understanding is that prepositions, as part of the idiom, should not be omitted.

In the discussion below, one Irishman shows some extra-sensitivity, prepositionwise:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/sit-in-on-at-the-balcony.1405123/

"The odd thing (in my head) is that I think at works if there are lots of balconies. I'm thinking of situations like:"



If we play with Drag0nspeaker's from a balcony perspective, taking into account in/on/at, I reckon the prepositions add clarity and vividness, e.g. describing the people above - do they have their respective, heh-heh, perspectives from at their balconies?
In other words, what is more expressive:
"from at-their-balconies perspectives"
"from their-balconies perspectives"

Simply, by having in/on/at the repertoire becomes richer, besides 'from a balcony perspective' has idiomatic usage which could have nothing to do with an actual balcony:
"What can leaders do?
Leaders can “get on the balcony.” In order to have an understanding of the bigger picture, leaders need to be able to view situations and problems from a balcony perspective. Getting swept up in the field of action is often not productive. Taking a look from the balcony enables leaders to provide language for the situation that their group finds itself in and facilitate movement toward a solution."
https://network.crcna.org/classis/six-principles-leading-adaptive-work

panjandrum said: ↑

It depends on what kind of balcony you are talking about.

If it is the balcony outside my hotel room, I sit on the balcony.

If it is the balcony in a theatre, I sit in the balcony.

Genuis!

So, an outside balcony = on
An inside balcony = in

Sorted!

manon33, May 19, 2009

Love this exchange!

If we take Wikipedia's example 'g':
g. As a black man, I find that offensive.
we have "from a-black-man perspective" or "from black-man's perspective", the nuance here is that no preposition is to be used at all, whereas 'balcony' couldn't have perspective of its own, yet, for my surprise "from a balcony perspective" is in use:
Learn to master 'The Power of a Positive No' - TODAY.com
https://www.today.com/popculture/learn-master-power-positive-no-wbna23466223
Mar 4, 2008 - The balcony is a place of perspective, calm, and clarity. From a balcony perspective, it is much easier to uncover the Yes behind your No.

Since Bulgarian and Russian languages are most brotherish, to me, the wording should be somewhat scrambled (to mimic them):
"perspective from the balcony" or:
"from/от balconyESQUE/балконСКА perspective/перспектива". The suffix -ESQUE becomes -ска/-ски/-ско.
Another, more popular example:
"from/от Sovietesque/Съветска perspective/перспектива".

Thus, the black-man's case is resolved by replacing FROM with OF:
"perspective OF the/a black man" or
"from/от niggeresque/негърска perspective/перспектива".
Fun fact, in Bulgaria and Russia 'nigger' is not derogative as in [modern] USA - it simply designates the race.

Could we omit on/in in these cases:
"in the know": "from in-the-know perspective"
"on the fly": "from on-the-fly perspective"
Don't thinks so.
From my perspective or rather tolltower (as the Bulgarian idiom goes), following that "formula" of direct idiom insertion yields strong wording/wordage.

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Romany
Posted: Monday, October 30, 2017 12:24:33 PM
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Joined: 6/14/2009
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Sanmayce -

I fear you are over-thinking this. REMEMBER: the language came first. Grammar (trying to explain it) came afterwards. Long, long afterwards.

The average English speaker doesn't even learn Grammar. Once a person has the "feel" of a language the ways to express oneself are legion - we each play with words and meanings in our own way. Not in a way for others to copy, but a way that expresses WHO one is. So no, just because the person said this, it has nothing to do with every other idiom in the English language. It hasn't become a "pattern": it's just one person's way of expressing themselves with originality.

It isn't anything one can teach. It comes with ease, confidence and knowledge in a language.
Sanmayce
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:39:06 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/2012
Posts: 239
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Location: Sofia, Sofia-Capital, Bulgaria
Romany, yes yes the grammar comes as a sidekick not as an actual engine, it serves/has support functions, grammar never interested me, my passion has always been morphology and it is based on the exciting hidden potential that different morphs could bring - to shorten, vividify and mostly to focus the attention.
And yes, my style is to overthink or rather overobserve small things, in this case the Sophia's "from * perspective" raw diamond, my desire was to clarify the use cases - they are so many and her pattern deserves extra attention.
Instantly I saw the potential of this construction - shortening the wordage just by dropping an idiom or phrasal verb (hyphenated) into the asterisk place.

>So no, just because the person said this, it has nothing to do with every other idiom in the English language. It hasn't become a "pattern": it's just one person's way of expressing themselves with originality.

The whole idea inhere is to legitimize the general "formula", if one wants to morph the pattern, full ahead, but since this pattern is kinda new to me I wanted to set the base - the starting point. Omitting the preposition seemed to me as starting off on the wrong foot.

In that spirit my latest connection with this construction is:

in irons
Prepositional phrase
1. (nautical) The "trapped" condition a sailing ship finds itself in when the bow of the ship is headed into the wind and the ship has stalled and is unable to maneuver.
2. The state of screw-powered ships which become stalled between crests of waves or swells during a typhoon, for instance, and the ship's rudder does not respond to the commands from the helm, leaving the ship at the mercy of the sea and in danger of capsizing.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_irons

So cool, "from in-irons perspective", as if some veteran sailor narrates options left in a cut-off situation.

Few months ago, remember TheParser was diving into this matter, shared with him next:

Catching nuances is a fine ability which serves well when one wants to hit the point in a well-versed and short manner.
My English is forever buggy, but this troubles me not - at all.

You see, my obsession with prepositions is never ending, a few years ago I tried to make one strong starting point in shape of a booklet with one purpose in mind - to help users ... positioning the pre-positions, in-positions and post-positions:

3x46 PRE/IN/POST-positions listed

Just randomly positioned on 'in' section, page 19:

in force ~ 1. In full strength; in large numbers: Demonstrators were out in force. 2. In effect; operative: a rule that is no longer in force.
in full cry ~ In hot pursuit, as hounds hunting.
in full swing ~ At the highest level of activity or operation.
for/in fun ~ As a joke; playfully.
...
in irons ~ Nautical: Lying head to the wind and unable to turn either way.
in jig time ~ Informal: Very quickly; rapidly.
in key ~ In consonance with other factors.
...
in the swim ~ Active in the general current of affairs.
in the zone ~ Informal: In a state of focused attention or energy so that one's performance is enhanced: a goalie who was in the zone throughout the playoffs.

A plethora of new superb alternatives:

from in-force perspective
from in-full-cry perspective
from in-full-swing perspective [ringing the 'in the thick of it' bell]
from in-fun perspective
from in-irons perspective
from in-jig-time perspective
from in-key perspective
from in-the-swim perspective
from in-the-zone perspective [ringing the 'in the thick of it' bell]

Funny, sometimes questions kindle bonfires, hee-hee, thanks go to Sophia - the bonfire-starter-ess or the lovely monolithic word 'bonfirestarteress'. On second thought, there is even lovelier one - bonfirestarteresses.

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
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